GTS
10-08-2014, 03:13 PM
#91
Rennlist Member
10-08-2014, 03:13 PM
#92
That's fine. People can disagree that **** smells for all I care. A car is the sum of its parts and the 991 GT3 != GT3 - not even close. That doesn't mean it can't be an incredible car in it's own right. I stand by my original statement; the 991 GT3 is more of a 991 GTS-R than a GT3. The entire drivetrain is completely different.
I don't recall stating that the prior GT3's were "race cars" as you put it. ...but there's a clear lineage between the CUP and those cars that isn't present with the 991. The GT3 is purely a marketing term at this point.
I have yet to see someone make a coherent argument against that other than "have you driven one!", "you're an idiot", "wow such ignorance" ....
I don't recall stating that the prior GT3's were "race cars" as you put it. ...but there's a clear lineage between the CUP and those cars that isn't present with the 991. The GT3 is purely a marketing term at this point.
I have yet to see someone make a coherent argument against that other than "have you driven one!", "you're an idiot", "wow such ignorance" ....
10-08-2014, 03:18 PM
#93
Nordschleife Master
After so many threads on the buckets some people are still confused.
The 918 US buckets are being offered for the GT3 starting in 2015. Why wouldn't they offer the same buckets as an options on the 2015 GTS?
The 918 US buckets are being offered for the GT3 starting in 2015. Why wouldn't they offer the same buckets as an options on the 2015 GTS?
10-08-2014, 03:23 PM
#94
Race Director
For someone who admits they drive their 991 in automatic 90% of the time, though, I'm not sure why a conversation about the relative merits of the 991 GT3 even matters.
Some inconsistencies in that blurb from Porsche. Folding backrest? So a different seat from the 918 bucket? Porsche will certify 2 sport buckets? And how do you have seat memory function for a seat with MANUAL fore and aft adjustment? Might just be marketing misspeak but who knows.....
10-08-2014, 03:25 PM
#95
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Exactly. The 991 GT3 was designed to be something special from the ground up. Engine, suspension, transmission, etc.
The 991 GTS variants are combinations of features from the garden-variety 911 models. Nothing more, nothing less. It will be the best of the standard 911 variants, but it should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as the GT3.
I've owned a 991 C2S. Great car, but it felt too much like a nice Mercedes and I sold it. Others may like the luxury, pampered ride, etc. Me, I wanted a sports car. (and IMHO, both my Cayman R and Boxster S are more pure sports car than the current standard 911 models - and I prefer the 987 to the 981)
The 991 GTS variants are combinations of features from the garden-variety 911 models. Nothing more, nothing less. It will be the best of the standard 911 variants, but it should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as the GT3.
I've owned a 991 C2S. Great car, but it felt too much like a nice Mercedes and I sold it. Others may like the luxury, pampered ride, etc. Me, I wanted a sports car. (and IMHO, both my Cayman R and Boxster S are more pure sports car than the current standard 911 models - and I prefer the 987 to the 981)
10-08-2014, 03:37 PM
#96
10-08-2014, 03:48 PM
#97
Rennlist Member
Refer to it however you like. You're entitled to your opinions, and besides I'm not interested in another argument over whether the 991 GT3 is a worthy successor to the 997 version. That's been done here for months already and to suddenly show up again to rekindle that old discussion is your prerogative but it seems pointless to me. Whatever.
For someone who admits they drive their 991 in automatic 90% of the time, though, I'm not sure why a conversation about the relative merits of the 991 GT3 even matters.
For someone who admits they drive their 991 in automatic 90% of the time, though, I'm not sure why a conversation about the relative merits of the 991 GT3 even matters.
10-08-2014, 03:52 PM
#98
Nordschleife Master
Joe, you were very knowledgeable guy, especially when it comes to these cars on the track. I would never question your judgment in that setting. It also sounds like you'd be someone good to call if I break something :-)
However, on this point, do you really not see the increased crossover from more mainstream buyers? The automatic transmission on the GT3 has opened up the car to lots of buyers wouldn't have purchased previously. They have reported as such on this and other sites. Go read the 20 different threads on options and you will see that many of them are not coming from GT3s they're coming from other cars.
By the way, I'm not suggesting that this is a good or bad thing. But I'm willing to bet that if I looked at the data I would see a lot more buyers for this new model who never have driven an air cooled car or owned other enthusiast manual transmission vehicles. Not better or worse. Just different. And I think very likely the entire Porsche strategy for this model, appealing to a broader audience.
However, on this point, do you really not see the increased crossover from more mainstream buyers? The automatic transmission on the GT3 has opened up the car to lots of buyers wouldn't have purchased previously. They have reported as such on this and other sites. Go read the 20 different threads on options and you will see that many of them are not coming from GT3s they're coming from other cars.
By the way, I'm not suggesting that this is a good or bad thing. But I'm willing to bet that if I looked at the data I would see a lot more buyers for this new model who never have driven an air cooled car or owned other enthusiast manual transmission vehicles. Not better or worse. Just different. And I think very likely the entire Porsche strategy for this model, appealing to a broader audience.
I think some of our statements need to be taken in context and the definition of what a different buyer means. I still think my statement is true, but let me explain why I think that it is:
1) I think it is a mistake to assume that just because PDK is in this new car, that a ton of people who don't know how to drive a manual tranny suddenly want a GT3. I would bet that the vast majority of buyers know how to drive a manual transmission. Can I get a show of hands from people on this 991GT3 forum that own or have a 991 GT3 on order and can't drive a manual tranny?
2) If you are saying that there is a set of people who own a 997 that refuse to get a 991 because of the PDK, you would be correct. However, it is another mistake to assume that this consists of a large portion of the buyers. It only seems that way because these guys are pretty vocal on the forums. My observation has been that it is the same guys that told me to "buy a real Porsche" when I asked a question on PCCB for the spyder in the 997GT3 forum, and the same guys that put a boat load of money into (4.1, 3.9, etc) their cars and drive at a snail's pace while feigning superiority. These guys won't get a 991. IMO, who cares and good riddance. (if you think I have a chip on my shoulder with some of the 997 guys, you would be correct)
3) These 'new buyer's that people are referring to generally fall into 2 categories:
a) Younger people who are new to Porsche and want to try to latest Porsche. They love to track their cars, and are ready to move up to the Porsche brand. They will fall in love with the brand and will become the new 'trakcars' of the future
b) Younger people who have never learned how to drive a manual, but have money and like fast cars. This is the 'new' buyer that I think many people are referring to. Since this subset is young, they tend to be social medial savvy, so their presence appears to be larger than what the reality is.
These people (a and b) will replace the 997 stalwarts, which is really not that many. So, yes, Chris Harris' statement was correct that the few disinfranchised will easily be replaced.
3) The remainder and vast majority are the Porsche fans that have always loved the brand. I can tell you right now that almost every single person I know who has a 991 GT3 or one on order has a) had a prior porsche, b) knows how to drive a manual, and c) tracks their car. The demographic has not changed drastically. It really hasn't.
4) What about the thought that since the GT3 is so much more comfortable to drive on street that it opens up the floodgates for all buyers? If that were the case, nobody would be buying the standard carrera models. This has been hyped up by the forums as well. Take at look at this video starting at 1:50:
That is a review of the 997.1 GT3. Does the review sound eerily familiar? What do you think the 996GT3 guys were saying at the time? I'll bet you their conversations were no different than ours. The stalwarts stuck with their 996 cars because it didn't have traction control since real men don't drive cars with traction control. New people were attracted to the 997. History repeats itself.
5) To the stalwarts that think the 997 demographic is more 'hardcore': They should realize that there are plenty of 997 owners that can barely drive, can't heel/toe to save their life, garage queen their cars, and poser up their cars with track goodies and never even step foot on a track. Those guys either don't give a crap about the 997 forum and enjoyed their cars nonetheless, or have moved on and sold their cars, just like some new 991 owners will do.
History repeats itself.
10-08-2014, 04:00 PM
#99
Race Director
10-08-2014, 04:06 PM
#100
Nordschleife Master
Joe, most of what you said I get and agree with. However, I still think that a bottom line fact that I cannot prove (although I guess I could put up a poll) is that....
for 991gt3 buyers, more were previous C2S, C4S, Targa, Turbo, GTS, etc. owners, converting to GT3... than with the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3s. And yes, I think the key reason is the PDK.
for 991gt3 buyers, more were previous C2S, C4S, Targa, Turbo, GTS, etc. owners, converting to GT3... than with the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3s. And yes, I think the key reason is the PDK.
10-08-2014, 04:13 PM
#101
Rennlist Member
Joe, most of what you said I get and agree with. However, I still think that a bottom line fact that I cannot prove (although I guess I could put up a poll) is that....
for 991gt3 buyers, more were previous C2S, C4S, Targa, Turbo, GTS, etc. owners, converting to GT3... than with the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3s. And yes, I think the key reason is the PDK.
for 991gt3 buyers, more were previous C2S, C4S, Targa, Turbo, GTS, etc. owners, converting to GT3... than with the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3s. And yes, I think the key reason is the PDK.
What appealed to me was the raw performance, obvious great reviews and (while more shallow), I think it is the best looking 911 Porsche has produced to date.
10-08-2014, 04:15 PM
#102
I think there's some truth to this. I've driven manual sports cars exclusively for 35 years. But as I've gotten older, the traffic in LA has grown even more mind boggling and my current car has had a clutch from hell---I figured why not ? There was certainly an attraction to a state of the art double clutch automatic with paddles. Perhaps triggered the inner F1 driver within me.
I'm not totally convinced I won't regret going in this direction--but am hoping if I've decided incorrectly, I can sell it without too much of a loss.
I'm not totally convinced I won't regret going in this direction--but am hoping if I've decided incorrectly, I can sell it without too much of a loss.
10-08-2014, 04:17 PM
#103
Nordschleife Master
PDK is one reason that increased their customer base,more user friendly/softer is another.
They should build a street legal Cup car if they want to address to a very small niche market.
They should build a street legal Cup car if they want to address to a very small niche market.
10-08-2014, 04:24 PM
#104
Race Director
Joe, most of what you said I get and agree with. However, I still think that a bottom line fact that I cannot prove (although I guess I could put up a poll) is that....
for 991gt3 buyers, more were previous C2S, C4S, Targa, Turbo, GTS, etc. owners, converting to GT3... than with the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3s. And yes, I think the key reason is the PDK.
for 991gt3 buyers, more were previous C2S, C4S, Targa, Turbo, GTS, etc. owners, converting to GT3... than with the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3s. And yes, I think the key reason is the PDK.
Respectfully, I don't think you have facts to back up your suspicions. As Joe points out, almost every 991 GT3 buyer who posts here has had a previous GT3, track experience, Porsche experience, or MT experience with other performance cars. This forum doesn't represent ALL 991 GT3 buyers but it's a pretty good sample.
For those buying a 991 GT3 who weren't previous GT3 owners, there are plenty of reasons why they might not have bought a GT3 earlier. I don't have facts to back up my suspicions either, but my guess is that the availability of PDK is low on the list.
10-08-2014, 04:43 PM
#105
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Too much speculation about things we don't have data for. As already noted, probably safe to say that the 991 GT3 will alienate some because of its tech, especially the PDK, but will attract many others because of its usability for everything from comfy DD to hardcore track use, along with other factors such as looks, price, etc.