GTS
10-11-2014, 12:35 PM
#331
Three Wheelin'
10-11-2014, 12:50 PM
#332
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Brian, are the parts specifically the issue? With anything in life it is never the minutiae, but the sum of the parts that make the success. So much of your argument is based on not actually experiencing this new GT3 for yourself. Just about every test drive out there, new owners, new Porsche owners, & new owners coming from past versions of the GT3 are absolutely sold on this machine.
The past cars were successful for the same reason. It's not just the Mezger. It's the Mezger working with a transmission, the transmission working with a drive shaft/differential, the drive shaft working with the suspension and wheels, the chassis working with all of it tied to the stupid human behind the wheel. This version does exactly what the past versions have, allowing the driver to take things even further. In all past versions, very few of the parts in the production vehicle are in the race version. 80% was a random number posed without quantifying weight, complexity, volume or mass. Seriously that last 20% must equate to 50% of the value.
So what makes a GT3 for you....a pinto with a 3.6 Mezger? Let's face it, if the tie to FIA designation is so important, why don't you just by the Standard 991 that is the homologated production car of the 991 RSR?
The past cars were successful for the same reason. It's not just the Mezger. It's the Mezger working with a transmission, the transmission working with a drive shaft/differential, the drive shaft working with the suspension and wheels, the chassis working with all of it tied to the stupid human behind the wheel. This version does exactly what the past versions have, allowing the driver to take things even further. In all past versions, very few of the parts in the production vehicle are in the race version. 80% was a random number posed without quantifying weight, complexity, volume or mass. Seriously that last 20% must equate to 50% of the value.
So what makes a GT3 for you....a pinto with a 3.6 Mezger? Let's face it, if the tie to FIA designation is so important, why don't you just by the Standard 991 that is the homologated production car of the 991 RSR?
I knew that the GT3/RS road cars had relationships to the various corresponding race cars, but didn't know much about the specifics of the relationships, other than knowing that there were plenty of obvious and major differences. This thread confirms that the differences are major, applying to just about every system in the car that matters. Which makes sense - why wouldn't Porsche do everything they can to maximize the performance of the race car within the homologation rules?
At the same time, while the road and race cars may not share many identical components in these systems, what the road cars do offer are components, and integration of components, which make the cars far more trackworthy than the 'regular' 911s intended mainly for street use. In that sense, I think it's fair to say that the road cars are 'street-legal race cars', in both character and performance, but not street-legal versions of the race cars actually used in racing.
The 991 GT3 is no exception here. Regardless of how it will be used (or not) for future homologation, the car clearly reflects serious engineering by Porsche Motorsports, with corresponding components not found on any of the other street cars, and resulting performance well beyond those cars. The car is indeed special, and worthy of the GT3 name IMO. The only other street car which rivals it is the Turbo/S, but that doesn't seem very sought after for track use, for various reasons.
And I'll repeat what I said in another thread and have alluded to in this thread. I recently had a long talk with a respected (ie, winning) pro racer who has a 991 GT3 and has tracked it. He's also raced many of the Porsche race cars, especially the cup cars, including racing the 991 cup for a year. And beyond racing, he's an expert in the cars themselves, and has a well-known company which specializes in Porsche mods. I'm told that when he got his 991 GT3, first thing he did was to disassemble much of the car so he could see what it's really made of. And actually, much of our conversation took place while we stood under his 991 cup as he pointed out the similarities and differences between the GT3 and the cup. His conclusion, based on both examining and driving the cars, is that the GT3 has many similarities to the cup (similarities, not identical components), has little in common with the street 911s on things that matter, and at heart is basically a race car, with performance to match. Good enough for me, and much more authoritative than the opinion of a young guy on the internet whose knowledge appears to come mainly from reading and videos (no offense intended).
Last edited by Manifold; 10-11-2014 at 01:18 PM.
10-11-2014, 02:37 PM
#333
Despite all the mayhem, this thread has been educational for me as far as learning about homologation and relationships between road and race cars.
I knew that the GT3/RS road cars had relationships to the various corresponding race cars, but didn't know much about the specifics of the relationships, other than knowing that there were plenty of obvious and major differences. This thread confirms that the differences are major, applying to just about every system in the car that matters. Which makes sense - why wouldn't Porsche do everything they can to maximize the performance of the race car within the homologation rules?
At the same time, while the road and race cars may not share many identical components in these systems, what the road cars do offer are components, and integration of components, which make the cars far more trackworthy than the 'regular' 911s intended mainly for street use. In that sense, I think it's fair to say that the road cars are 'street-legal race cars', in both character and performance, but not street-legal versions of the race cars actually used in racing.
The 991 GT3 is no exception here. Regardless of how it will be used (or not) for future homologation, the car clearly reflects serious engineering by Porsche Motorsports, with corresponding components not found on any of the other street cars, and resulting performance well beyond those cars. The car is indeed special, and worthy of the GT3 name IMO. The only other street car which rivals it is the Turbo/S, but that doesn't seem very sought after for track use, for various reasons.
And I'll repeat what I said in another thread and have alluded to in this thread. I recently had a long talk with a respected (ie, winning) pro racer who has a 991 GT3 and has tracked it. He's also raced many of the Porsche race cars, especially the cup cars, including racing the 991 cup for a year. And beyond racing, he's an expert in the cars themselves, and has a well-known company which specializes in Porsche mods. I'm told that when he got his 991 GT3, first thing he did was to disassemble much of the car so he could see what it's really made of. And actually, much of our conversation took place while we stood under his 991 cup as he pointed out the similarities and differences between the GT3 and the cup. His conclusion, based on both examining and driving the cars, is that the GT3 has many similarities to the cup (similarities, not identical components), has little in common with the street 911s on things that matter, and at heart is basically a race car, with performance to match. Good enough for me, and much more authoritative than the opinion of a young guy on the internet whose knowledge appears to come mainly from reading and videos (no offense intended).
I knew that the GT3/RS road cars had relationships to the various corresponding race cars, but didn't know much about the specifics of the relationships, other than knowing that there were plenty of obvious and major differences. This thread confirms that the differences are major, applying to just about every system in the car that matters. Which makes sense - why wouldn't Porsche do everything they can to maximize the performance of the race car within the homologation rules?
At the same time, while the road and race cars may not share many identical components in these systems, what the road cars do offer are components, and integration of components, which make the cars far more trackworthy than the 'regular' 911s intended mainly for street use. In that sense, I think it's fair to say that the road cars are 'street-legal race cars', in both character and performance, but not street-legal versions of the race cars actually used in racing.
The 991 GT3 is no exception here. Regardless of how it will be used (or not) for future homologation, the car clearly reflects serious engineering by Porsche Motorsports, with corresponding components not found on any of the other street cars, and resulting performance well beyond those cars. The car is indeed special, and worthy of the GT3 name IMO. The only other street car which rivals it is the Turbo/S, but that doesn't seem very sought after for track use, for various reasons.
And I'll repeat what I said in another thread and have alluded to in this thread. I recently had a long talk with a respected (ie, winning) pro racer who has a 991 GT3 and has tracked it. He's also raced many of the Porsche race cars, especially the cup cars, including racing the 991 cup for a year. And beyond racing, he's an expert in the cars themselves, and has a well-known company which specializes in Porsche mods. I'm told that when he got his 991 GT3, first thing he did was to disassemble much of the car so he could see what it's really made of. And actually, much of our conversation took place while we stood under his 991 cup as he pointed out the similarities and differences between the GT3 and the cup. His conclusion, based on both examining and driving the cars, is that the GT3 has many similarities to the cup (similarities, not identical components), has little in common with the street 911s on things that matter, and at heart is basically a race car, with performance to match. Good enough for me, and much more authoritative than the opinion of a young guy on the internet whose knowledge appears to come mainly from reading and videos (no offense intended).
I also had a long talk with a winning pro racer and my guy said your guy is full of **** as he took off each part from his Cup car and examined them side by side with 991 GT3 parts.
10-11-2014, 02:47 PM
#334
Huh? What? Contradiction? Unless you are talking about a different series/model Cup in this thread.
10-11-2014, 02:52 PM
#335
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Feel free to share all those similarities with everyone else. Lots of emotion in this post and virtually no facts.
I also had a long talk with a winning pro racer and my guy said your guy is full of **** as he took off each part from his Cup car and examined them side by side with 991 GT3 parts.
I also had a long talk with a winning pro racer and my guy said your guy is full of **** as he took off each part from his Cup car and examined them side by side with 991 GT3 parts.
If you have that kind of time, feel free to list the key parts for the 991 GT3, 991 cup, and 991 Carrera S (or GTS), along with your comparative analysis of them. Until you do that, keep in mind that you've been discredited by your many factual errors. So I'm done engaging on this topic with you until you have something new and verifiable to add.
Why is this conversation still going on?
10-11-2014, 08:12 PM
#339
Burning Brakes
My understanding is that a 2 seater will always cost more to insure than a comparable 4 seater.
10-11-2014, 09:17 PM
#341
I'm not the expert, the person I spoke with is. He's well known in my circles, and I trust him. Like I said, good enough for me. I don't need to waste my time making the case to convince you.
If you have that kind of time, feel free to list the key parts for the 991 GT3, 991 cup, and 991 Carrera S (or GTS), along with your comparative analysis of them. Until you do that, keep in mind that you've been discredited by your many factual errors. So I'm done engaging on this topic with you until you have something new and verifiable to add.
If you have that kind of time, feel free to list the key parts for the 991 GT3, 991 cup, and 991 Carrera S (or GTS), along with your comparative analysis of them. Until you do that, keep in mind that you've been discredited by your many factual errors. So I'm done engaging on this topic with you until you have something new and verifiable to add.
Further - point out my factual errors. I'm willing to acknowledge if I said something incorrect.
Last edited by destaccado; 10-11-2014 at 10:14 PM.
10-11-2014, 10:18 PM
#342
He says it's based on the 991 street car -- he doesn't mention the GT3 at all. Then he goes on to list things in common such as; longer wheelbase, paddle shift system, use of aluminum and steel to save 50kg in the chassis, carbon fiber door -- things which either apply to all models of the 991, or in the case of the carbon fiber doors - none of them.
10-11-2014, 11:17 PM
#344
Rennlist Member
10-12-2014, 12:03 AM
#345
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