GTS
10-11-2014, 03:00 AM
#316
Rennlist Member
For the 997, they mention the 80% shared parts, but which parts? Transmission and suspension are certainly quite different. Engine seems to be close, but the road car engine doesn't need a rebuild in ~100 hours like the cup (and doesn't require 100 octane). I'd like to know more specifics about the similarities and differences.
If you were only racing your GT3/RS and banging on the rev limiter every time you changed the gears the engine would last a lot less. And I believe the rev limiter is actually higher in the cups, but not 100% sure.
10-11-2014, 03:04 AM
#317
Rennlist Member
Andreas Preuninger: "completely new engine, complete new engine family, we have a custom tailored PDK gearbox now...race car like sensation when you drive it, it was very, very important to get the maximum emotion and driver involvement out of the PDK gearbox" In fact -- the only thing he says that relates it to the Cup is that the same people worked on designing it (albeit using all derivative components from the Carrera models) So basically per your own video that I just watched -- "feels" and "emotion" are what connects the 991 Cup to 991 GT3 -- not car parts. Like I said 100x already. In my opinion; fantastic car - and I don't mean that with only token appreciation - but not a GT3.
The past cars were successful for the same reason. It's not just the Mezger. It's the Mezger working with a transmission, the transmission working with a drive shaft/differential, the drive shaft working with the suspension and wheels, the chassis working with all of it tied to the stupid human behind the wheel. This version does exactly what the past versions have, allowing the driver to take things even further. In all past versions, very few of the parts in the production vehicle are in the race version. 80% was a random number posed without quantifying weight, complexity, volume or mass. Seriously that last 20% must equate to 50% of the value.
So what makes a GT3 for you....a pinto with a 3.6 Mezger? Let's face it, if the tie to FIA designation is so important, why don't you just by the Standard 991 that is the homologated production car of the 991 RSR?
10-11-2014, 03:11 AM
#318
Brian, are the parts specifically the issue? With anything in life it is never the minutiae, but the sum of the parts that make the success. So much of your argument is based on not actually experiencing this new GT3 for yourself. Just about every test drive out there, new owners, new Porsche owners, & new owners coming from past versions of the GT3 are absolutely sold on this machine.
The past cars were successful for the same reason. It's not just the Mezger. It's the Mezger working with a transmission, the transmission working with a drive shaft/differential, the drive shaft working with the suspension and wheels, the chassis working with all of it tied to the stupid human behind the wheel. This version does exactly what the past versions have, allowing the driver to take things even further. In all past versions, very few of the parts in the production vehicle are in the race version. 80% was a random number posed without quantifying weight, complexity, volume or mass. Seriously that last 20% must equate to 50% of the value.
So what makes a GT3 for you....a pinto with a 3.6 Mezger? Let's face it, if the tie to FIA designation is so important, why don't you just by the Standard 991 that is the homologated production car of the 991 RSR?
The past cars were successful for the same reason. It's not just the Mezger. It's the Mezger working with a transmission, the transmission working with a drive shaft/differential, the drive shaft working with the suspension and wheels, the chassis working with all of it tied to the stupid human behind the wheel. This version does exactly what the past versions have, allowing the driver to take things even further. In all past versions, very few of the parts in the production vehicle are in the race version. 80% was a random number posed without quantifying weight, complexity, volume or mass. Seriously that last 20% must equate to 50% of the value.
So what makes a GT3 for you....a pinto with a 3.6 Mezger? Let's face it, if the tie to FIA designation is so important, why don't you just by the Standard 991 that is the homologated production car of the 991 RSR?
So yes -- for me a 991 GT3 for the street would be a 991 Carrera 4 with the Mezger driven powertrain put together by the Motorsports division. It seems pretty clear to me that the only reason the 991 GT3 wasn't produced that way is because the beancounters realized they could make the car more profitable with a cheaper powertrain by also making the car more accessible.
10-11-2014, 03:20 AM
#319
Rennlist Member
The 991 C4 is the homologated product for the RSR combined with the Mezger motor which is homologated for 8 years after it was last used in a street car. So yes -- for me a 991 GT3 for the street would be a 991 Carrera 4 with the Mezger driven powertrain put together by the Motorsports division.
I just so happen to own one of those. It's a 3.8L, 964, C4.....and it's a convertible! Pss9's, RS sways and a whole lot of fun!
10-11-2014, 05:18 AM
#320
Are you sure FIA homologates car parts? I'm pretty sure they only homologate actual car model designations. Also, historically for Porsche the GT3 model is their model designed for street/track use with a heavier nod towards track. I'm fairly confident, the current GT3 would toast a Mezger C4 given equal drivers, but who knows since a 911 Mezger, non DFI, C4 will never exist as a future production car, unless you go back to the air cooled models.
I just so happen to own one of those. It's a 3.8L, 964, C4.....and it's a convertible! Pss9's, RS sways and a whole lot of fun!
I just so happen to own one of those. It's a 3.8L, 964, C4.....and it's a convertible! Pss9's, RS sways and a whole lot of fun!
2.1.3.4 To be equipped with an engine used in a production car and made in a quantity of at least 300 units
2.2.3 Lapsed Homologation
2.2.3.1 The homologation will become lapsed:
The year following the stop of the production if a minimum of 200 road cars has not been produced (50 for a "Small Manufacturer")
8 years after the stop of the production if at least a minimum of 200 road cars has been produced (50 for a "Small Manufacturer")
The Mezger clearly isn't used in a production car in 2014 and therefore must be homologated off previous production cars. Further, article 6 - the engine regulations - wouldn't allow it otherwise due to things such as;
6.2.1 Cylinder block, cylinder head(s), valve angles, number, material and location of camshafts: must remain original, as they are fitted on the production vehicle. The firing order is free.
The 991 Carrera 4 9a1 engine isn't the same cylinder block as the Mezger and therefore the engine was clearly homologated seperately.
The Mezger is an overbuilt engine designed for racing with removable cylinder liners and other internal differences that make it suitable for racing by allowing rebuilt motors to perform as new. The built 9a1 in the GT3 is "plenty good enough" for the street and the amount of tracking the typical owner will do while saving Porsche a boatload of money in production cost and greatly enhancing their profit. As a side benefit it probably has better fuel consumption and emissions which helps Porsche's fleet numbers -- increasing their profits further.
Last edited by destaccado; 10-11-2014 at 05:33 AM.
10-11-2014, 07:04 AM
#321
Three Wheelin'
Andreas Preuninger: "completely new engine, complete new engine family, we have a custom tailored PDK gearbox now...race car like sensation when you drive it, it was very, very important to get the maximum emotion and driver involvement out of the PDK gearbox"
In fact -- the only thing he says that relates it to the Cup is that the same people worked on designing it (albeit using all derivative components from the Carrera models)
So basically per your own video that I just watched -- "feels" and "emotion" are what connects the 991 Cup to 991 GT3 -- not car parts.
Like I said 100x already. In my opinion; fantastic car - and I don't mean that with only token appreciation - but not a GT3.
In fact -- the only thing he says that relates it to the Cup is that the same people worked on designing it (albeit using all derivative components from the Carrera models)
So basically per your own video that I just watched -- "feels" and "emotion" are what connects the 991 Cup to 991 GT3 -- not car parts.
Like I said 100x already. In my opinion; fantastic car - and I don't mean that with only token appreciation - but not a GT3.
And, who says by virtue of the 991 competing in GT3 with the Metzger motor due to the stop order results in complete disqualification of the road car as a "GT3"? You? Obviously not. What is the current 991 GT3 with Metzger that is racing? Is that vehicle ignored and the 991 GT3 road car ignored as well because Porsche had to use the old engine due to the stop order? What will be your position when Porsche produces a homologation model with DFI engine for 991 GT3 racing?
Ultimately, unless you're GT3 FIA president, Jean Todt, why should anyone care what you think about whether the GT3 road car is a GT3? And, what of the GT3 racing outside of France?
Here, something to watch.
http://www.total911.com/video-porsch...t3-vs-gt3-cup/
And, I apologize for making fun of you earlier. I had to look up a lot of information to decide whether your claim was true or not. In doing so, I still think you're wrong but, I admit I educated myself in the process.
Dan (thinks semantics is pointless when there is a 991 GT3 in competition)
Last edited by hfm; 10-11-2014 at 07:25 AM.
10-11-2014, 07:39 AM
#322
Let's get one thing straight I'm not "worried about" what the **** you do for a living. Im curious. So since you're a man who like to use words and monikers and things appropriately, try reading.
And no I don't have any more cars to sell, car is gone. But you really got me with that one.
I think you're a joke, and someone or something broke you in life and now you sit there all alone pushing strangers buttons on the Internet all day.
I was actually curious what you did for a living cause I'm baffled that some guy who can afford Porsches has time to answer every singe petty little comment or quote or fact that's thrown at them. It actually seems as if you're paid to be in here jerking us all off. And I'm wondering if I can get you over here for a real handie instead of this cyber-tug you're giving this whole thread.
I feel bad for anyone who's spent their, I mean wasted their time even replying to you. Including myself.
No matter what BS you throw back next in not biting. I'm done in here. Best of luck
And no I don't have any more cars to sell, car is gone. But you really got me with that one.
I think you're a joke, and someone or something broke you in life and now you sit there all alone pushing strangers buttons on the Internet all day.
I was actually curious what you did for a living cause I'm baffled that some guy who can afford Porsches has time to answer every singe petty little comment or quote or fact that's thrown at them. It actually seems as if you're paid to be in here jerking us all off. And I'm wondering if I can get you over here for a real handie instead of this cyber-tug you're giving this whole thread.
I feel bad for anyone who's spent their, I mean wasted their time even replying to you. Including myself.
No matter what BS you throw back next in not biting. I'm done in here. Best of luck
I have about 5% of the knowledge base on GT3s than most of you on here. But I'll tell you this; I've dreamed of owning a GT3 for years because I see it as the pinnacle of Porsche's R&D (as far as road cars go), and I wanted to stick with the NA option. I looked at 997s because I wanted a MT but couldn't justify spending almost as much as I would for a new 991. So from a newbie's perspective; this is absolutely a GT3 and I'm counting the days until my January delivery. What someone else thinks about my car and what it "should" be called...well, I just don't give a ****. Life is too short to worry about opinions of people who just don't matter.
This guy is obviously just trying to get y'all riled up. Who in their right mind would spend so much time on the board of a car that he has no interest in buying but belittling those of us who do? I can't imagine going to a Nissan Z board and bitching and moaning that the 370Z isn't really a Z car because it doesn't share enough components with the 300ZX Turbo I had in high school.
Cars evolve...shouldn't we?
10-11-2014, 08:19 AM
#324
Drifting
Originally Posted by destaccado
Obviously the street version of a race car is going to have vastly different components. However, the two cars clearly share a direct lineage utilizing some derivative designs - yes including the motor. If Porsche decides to use the 9A1 in their race car at some point -- that same lineage will be restored to the 991.
10-11-2014, 08:50 AM
#325
And, who says by virtue of the 991 competing in GT3 with the Metzger motor due to the stop order results in complete disqualification of the road car as a "GT3"? You? Obviously not. What is the current 991 GT3 with Metzger that is racing? Is that vehicle ignored and the 991 GT3 road car ignored as well because Porsche had to use the old engine due to the stop order? What will be your position when Porsche produces a homologation model with DFI engine for 991 GT3 racing?
10-11-2014, 08:59 AM
#326
I've suffered through reading 22 pages of this thread, but this one finally got me to post. This is just damn funny.
I have about 5% of the knowledge base on GT3s than most of you on here. But I'll tell you this; I've dreamed of owning a GT3 for years because I see it as the pinnacle of Porsche's R&D (as far as road cars go), and I wanted to stick with the NA option. I looked at 997s because I wanted a MT but couldn't justify spending almost as much as I would for a new 991. So from a newbie's perspective; this is absolutely a GT3 and I'm counting the days until my January delivery. What someone else thinks about my car and what it "should" be called...well, I just don't give a ****. Life is too short to worry about opinions of people who just don't matter.
This guy is obviously just trying to get y'all riled up. Who in their right mind would spend so much time on the board of a car that he has no interest in buying but belittling those of us who do? I can't imagine going to a Nissan Z board and bitching and moaning that the 370Z isn't really a Z car because it doesn't share enough components with the 300ZX Turbo I had in high school.
Cars evolve...shouldn't we?
I have about 5% of the knowledge base on GT3s than most of you on here. But I'll tell you this; I've dreamed of owning a GT3 for years because I see it as the pinnacle of Porsche's R&D (as far as road cars go), and I wanted to stick with the NA option. I looked at 997s because I wanted a MT but couldn't justify spending almost as much as I would for a new 991. So from a newbie's perspective; this is absolutely a GT3 and I'm counting the days until my January delivery. What someone else thinks about my car and what it "should" be called...well, I just don't give a ****. Life is too short to worry about opinions of people who just don't matter.
This guy is obviously just trying to get y'all riled up. Who in their right mind would spend so much time on the board of a car that he has no interest in buying but belittling those of us who do? I can't imagine going to a Nissan Z board and bitching and moaning that the 370Z isn't really a Z car because it doesn't share enough components with the 300ZX Turbo I had in high school.
Cars evolve...shouldn't we?
10-11-2014, 09:29 AM
#327
10-11-2014, 10:19 AM
#328
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Posts: 13,065
Received 4,378 Likes
on
2,491 Posts
Actually the 100 hrs for the rebuild is basically a suggestion, each person's driving abilities are different and therefore the wear on the engine changes from one person's car to another. I'm pretty sure Porsche has chosen 100 hrs for the very hard core drivers.
If you were only racing your GT3/RS and banging on the rev limiter every time you changed the gears the engine would last a lot less. And I believe the rev limiter is actually higher in the cups, but not 100% sure.
If you were only racing your GT3/RS and banging on the rev limiter every time you changed the gears the engine would last a lot less. And I believe the rev limiter is actually higher in the cups, but not 100% sure.
I understand that gearbox rebuild is another big cost item, and the interval for that depends even more on the driver than engine rebuild. I shopped for a 997 cup for a while, and it was this gearbox issue that deterred me the most.
So now I've gone a rather different route and ordered the 991 GT3: much higher initial cost, hopefully much less operating cost, trailer not needed, apparently about equally fast on the same tires (if the 991 GT3 can take slicks), more foolproof overall, less safety equipment. Wasn't really an easy decision.
