Buying a GT2 RS: My Unfortunate Dealings with Porsche of the Main Line
10-06-2017, 06:52 PM
#181
Rennlist Member
Even the most astute businessmen can get screwed when making a purchase like this. This type of car buying is emotional and does not make any financial sense, flippers excluded. Home purchase comparison is a bad example. Why would anyone pay 30K for a watch when a 30 dollar Casio can keep a better time?
My 2 cents to ****, don't feel bad. May be a .2RS will make your grin wider, and, in the long run, you may be happier you did not spend the money on this car. ... And who knows, it may be the best and last NA car produced.
That said, there is a reason why a real estate contract involves more than 30 pages of disclosures and terms. When real money is at stake, friends and brothers screw each other like you would not believe. Gentlemen? You guys are dreaming of the dark ages and knighthood.
Edit: Life is too short; It's not worth getting upset about things like this. Move on... Most everything happens for a good reason when you look back 2-3 years later, especially when WANT and IMPULSE are in the equation.
My 2 cents to ****, don't feel bad. May be a .2RS will make your grin wider, and, in the long run, you may be happier you did not spend the money on this car. ... And who knows, it may be the best and last NA car produced.
That said, there is a reason why a real estate contract involves more than 30 pages of disclosures and terms. When real money is at stake, friends and brothers screw each other like you would not believe. Gentlemen? You guys are dreaming of the dark ages and knighthood.
Edit: Life is too short; It's not worth getting upset about things like this. Move on... Most everything happens for a good reason when you look back 2-3 years later, especially when WANT and IMPULSE are in the equation.
10-06-2017, 07:25 PM
#182
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Even the most astute businessmen can get screwed when making a purchase like this. This type of car buying is emotional and does not make any financial sense, flippers excluded. Home purchase comparison is a bad example. Why would anyone pay 30K for a watch when a 30 dollar Casio can keep a better time?
My 2 cents to ****, don't feel bad. May be a .2RS will make your grin wider, and, in the long run, you may be happier you did not spend the money on this car. ... And who knows, it may be the best and last NA car produced.
That said, there is a reason why a real estate contract involves more than 30 pages of disclosures and terms. When real money is at stake, friends and brothers screw each other like you would not believe. Gentlemen? You guys are dreaming of the dark ages and knighthood.
Edit: Life is too short; It's not worth getting upset about things like this. Move on... Most everything happens for a good reason when you look back 2-3 years later, especially when WANT and IMPULSE are in the equation.
My 2 cents to ****, don't feel bad. May be a .2RS will make your grin wider, and, in the long run, you may be happier you did not spend the money on this car. ... And who knows, it may be the best and last NA car produced.
That said, there is a reason why a real estate contract involves more than 30 pages of disclosures and terms. When real money is at stake, friends and brothers screw each other like you would not believe. Gentlemen? You guys are dreaming of the dark ages and knighthood.
Edit: Life is too short; It's not worth getting upset about things like this. Move on... Most everything happens for a good reason when you look back 2-3 years later, especially when WANT and IMPULSE are in the equation.
10-06-2017, 07:43 PM
#183
Pro
Even the most astute businessmen can get screwed when making a purchase like this. This type of car buying is emotional and does not make any financial sense, flippers excluded. Home purchase comparison is a bad example. Why would anyone pay 30K for a watch when a 30 dollar Casio can keep a better time?
My 2 cents to ****, don't feel bad. May be a .2RS will make your grin wider, and, in the long run, you may be happier you did not spend the money on this car. ... And who knows, it may be the best and last NA car produced.
That said, there is a reason why a real estate contract involves more than 30 pages of disclosures and terms. When real money is at stake, friends and brothers screw each other like you would not believe. Gentlemen? You guys are dreaming of the dark ages and knighthood.
Edit: Life is too short; It's not worth getting upset about things like this. Move on... Most everything happens for a good reason when you look back 2-3 years later, especially when WANT and IMPULSE are in the equation.
My 2 cents to ****, don't feel bad. May be a .2RS will make your grin wider, and, in the long run, you may be happier you did not spend the money on this car. ... And who knows, it may be the best and last NA car produced.
That said, there is a reason why a real estate contract involves more than 30 pages of disclosures and terms. When real money is at stake, friends and brothers screw each other like you would not believe. Gentlemen? You guys are dreaming of the dark ages and knighthood.
Edit: Life is too short; It's not worth getting upset about things like this. Move on... Most everything happens for a good reason when you look back 2-3 years later, especially when WANT and IMPULSE are in the equation.
10-06-2017, 07:44 PM
#184
Even the most astute businessmen can get screwed when making a purchase like this. This type of car buying is emotional and does not make any financial sense, flippers excluded. Home purchase comparison is a bad example. Why would anyone pay 30K for a watch when a 30 dollar Casio can keep a better time?
My 2 cents to ****, don't feel bad. May be a .2RS will make your grin wider, and, in the long run, you may be happier you did not spend the money on this car. ... And who knows, it may be the best and last NA car produced.
That said, there is a reason why a real estate contract involves more than 30 pages of disclosures and terms. When real money is at stake, friends and brothers screw each other like you would not believe. Gentlemen? You guys are dreaming of the dark ages and knighthood.
Edit: Life is too short; It's not worth getting upset about things like this. Move on... Most everything happens for a good reason when you look back 2-3 years later, especially when WANT and IMPULSE are in the equation.
My 2 cents to ****, don't feel bad. May be a .2RS will make your grin wider, and, in the long run, you may be happier you did not spend the money on this car. ... And who knows, it may be the best and last NA car produced.
That said, there is a reason why a real estate contract involves more than 30 pages of disclosures and terms. When real money is at stake, friends and brothers screw each other like you would not believe. Gentlemen? You guys are dreaming of the dark ages and knighthood.
Edit: Life is too short; It's not worth getting upset about things like this. Move on... Most everything happens for a good reason when you look back 2-3 years later, especially when WANT and IMPULSE are in the equation.
10-06-2017, 07:56 PM
#185
Rennlist Member
May be not the perfect analogy, but I mentioned to highlight the WANT part vs. financial sense. I'm with you, my 2 watches have outlasted any car I've owned. My hope is that the incoming manual gt3 will be a keeper like those watches.
10-06-2017, 08:09 PM
#186
Enjoy the GT3 ........I think my RS and Boxster Spyder are keepers I've not been this satisfied with two cars in a very long time. I actually turned down my .2 GT3 allocation at MSRP. Rather someone have it that wants it. Now if I get a RS different tune(: hope good goes around.
10-06-2017, 09:19 PM
#187
As much as I wanted to hate it at first, and still do in some respects, manufacturers could learn a thing or two from Ford and how they handled the new GT.
Everybody knew the car was an instant collectible, that would be sold to the highest bidders by any dealer with an allocation, basically. Collectors, speculators, etc would purchase 90% of them and the dealers would keep every penny of the ADM that purchasers paid.
Instead, Ford had the application process, they vetted potential buyers, sifted out all the speculators and dealership CEOs only buying them because they could, from the people who "deserved" them the most. Ford priced the car at a price they thought the market would pay and then selected people who were willing to pay it.
Due to the laws that were put into place at a time when they were necessary, OEMs cannot sell directly to consumers in many states. The GT was still sold through a dealer, technically. Because Ford had already chosen who the buyers would be, there was no market to hold bidding war, so they could only charge MSRP. The dealer never had the chance to add ADM. the buyers still paid for it though, the markup was built into the price. Instead of being a line item on top of the MSRP that the dealer chose, Ford kept it all in their own pocket.
Like has probably been beat to death, ADM exists because people are willing to pay it, but manufacturers are partially to blame. They inflate demand with artificial exclusivity by limiting production instead of letting the market dictate both. If the manufacturer was actually opposed to the dealers charging an ADM they could easily remedy it by increasing production to match demand. It's a tricky thing to get right though, because exclusivity is a large motivator for the purchase in the first place.
I find it somewhat interesting what Porsche did though. I seem to remember the head of the GT dept saying that people who purchased 911Rs only to sell them for a profit would be "punished". I was a bit annoyed when I first heard this because of the limited production nature and the reasons mentioned above, but I think the 991.2 GT3 was the punishment. By offering a manual, and the touring pkg, they ruined the secondary market for the 911R. There will always be a niche for hyper-limited cars that go to the best customers and mega-rich collectors, and they'll always demand a premium.
Everybody knew the car was an instant collectible, that would be sold to the highest bidders by any dealer with an allocation, basically. Collectors, speculators, etc would purchase 90% of them and the dealers would keep every penny of the ADM that purchasers paid.
Instead, Ford had the application process, they vetted potential buyers, sifted out all the speculators and dealership CEOs only buying them because they could, from the people who "deserved" them the most. Ford priced the car at a price they thought the market would pay and then selected people who were willing to pay it.
Due to the laws that were put into place at a time when they were necessary, OEMs cannot sell directly to consumers in many states. The GT was still sold through a dealer, technically. Because Ford had already chosen who the buyers would be, there was no market to hold bidding war, so they could only charge MSRP. The dealer never had the chance to add ADM. the buyers still paid for it though, the markup was built into the price. Instead of being a line item on top of the MSRP that the dealer chose, Ford kept it all in their own pocket.
Like has probably been beat to death, ADM exists because people are willing to pay it, but manufacturers are partially to blame. They inflate demand with artificial exclusivity by limiting production instead of letting the market dictate both. If the manufacturer was actually opposed to the dealers charging an ADM they could easily remedy it by increasing production to match demand. It's a tricky thing to get right though, because exclusivity is a large motivator for the purchase in the first place.
I find it somewhat interesting what Porsche did though. I seem to remember the head of the GT dept saying that people who purchased 911Rs only to sell them for a profit would be "punished". I was a bit annoyed when I first heard this because of the limited production nature and the reasons mentioned above, but I think the 991.2 GT3 was the punishment. By offering a manual, and the touring pkg, they ruined the secondary market for the 911R. There will always be a niche for hyper-limited cars that go to the best customers and mega-rich collectors, and they'll always demand a premium.
10-07-2017, 02:49 AM
#188
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
while we do not know if oP's contract has all the "details" but this is buy a car not a billion dollar deal. we dont have a team of 500 counsels reviewing every single word and punctuation marks and a team of tax lawyers figuring when and how cash flows. i am pretty certain they dealer knew what they were saying and does the the op. even without specific, i would have a lawyer draft a friendly letter to warn them, followed by full page announcement on WSJ, NYT and every major newspaper and social media site.... if the dealership has half a brain, they will figure out what is the right thing to do.
10-07-2017, 03:55 AM
#189
Burning Brakes
while we do not know if oP's contract has all the "details" but this is buy a car not a billion dollar deal. we dont have a team of 500 counsels reviewing every single word and punctuation marks and a team of tax lawyers figuring when and how cash flows. i am pretty certain they dealer knew what they were saying and does the the op. even without specific, i would have a lawyer draft a friendly letter to warn them, followed by full page announcement on WSJ, NYT and every major newspaper and social media site.... if the dealership has half a brain, they will figure out what is the right thing to do.
According to The New York Times' media kit, full-page ads in the nationwide edition run for about $150,000 before the added cost for color.
......
LOL
10-07-2017, 06:32 AM
#190
Drifting
Just my 2 cents.....this isn't anything similar to what OP is dealing with? Nothing above applies to this situation. While I am not a fan of dealers that aren't transparent with orders, deposits, and communication (agreed upon sale price in writing) this particular deal hasn't come close to meeting terms in your post.
1) I have not seen a price ever stated on a contract and unfortunately if just spoken about it won't hold up in court without many things to go along with the verbal air exchanged....he said, she said will follow written facts when in doubt.
2) We need to see the Pre-trade details on paperwork signed to allow dealership to sell the Ferrari before the GT2 RS final buyers contract was executed (Vin needed and price breakdown required). I assure you language exists on it for just a situation in which a deposit car never materializes ("subject to availability") from Porsche, if the dealership sold Ferrari and afterwards the OP wanted to back out of getting the deposit vehicle, or terms just don't come together when a car materializes. In other words dealer cant just get keys to the Ferrari and sell it without other docs being signed by OP so that it can be completed legally.
3) You can't "make a seller sell" if the seller didn't sell anything or agree to? They agreed to take a deposit for a potential allocated car with almost no other info or vague info at best to secure a deposit.
4) Other than making an honored individual serving in our armed forces that protects our great nation feel screwed which was easily avoidable by the dealer just stating 2+ years ago.....we won't discuss a potential price until we examine market value but we will leave you first on list with a right to turn down when final asking price is determined, or we won't consider selling at MSRP so keep your deposit money and your trade in because it would be wasting your time, or WE WILL SELL AND COMMIT ON CONTRACT THAT WE WILL HONOR THE MSRP AS THE SALE PRICE PLUS PURCHASE FEES WHATEVER IT MAY BE AS LISTED ON MONRONEY STICKER FROM PCNA...I just don't see how this experience mirrors a home purchase or sale at all from a contract standpoint?
1) I have not seen a price ever stated on a contract and unfortunately if just spoken about it won't hold up in court without many things to go along with the verbal air exchanged....he said, she said will follow written facts when in doubt.
2) We need to see the Pre-trade details on paperwork signed to allow dealership to sell the Ferrari before the GT2 RS final buyers contract was executed (Vin needed and price breakdown required). I assure you language exists on it for just a situation in which a deposit car never materializes ("subject to availability") from Porsche, if the dealership sold Ferrari and afterwards the OP wanted to back out of getting the deposit vehicle, or terms just don't come together when a car materializes. In other words dealer cant just get keys to the Ferrari and sell it without other docs being signed by OP so that it can be completed legally.
3) You can't "make a seller sell" if the seller didn't sell anything or agree to? They agreed to take a deposit for a potential allocated car with almost no other info or vague info at best to secure a deposit.
4) Other than making an honored individual serving in our armed forces that protects our great nation feel screwed which was easily avoidable by the dealer just stating 2+ years ago.....we won't discuss a potential price until we examine market value but we will leave you first on list with a right to turn down when final asking price is determined, or we won't consider selling at MSRP so keep your deposit money and your trade in because it would be wasting your time, or WE WILL SELL AND COMMIT ON CONTRACT THAT WE WILL HONOR THE MSRP AS THE SALE PRICE PLUS PURCHASE FEES WHATEVER IT MAY BE AS LISTED ON MONRONEY STICKER FROM PCNA...I just don't see how this experience mirrors a home purchase or sale at all from a contract standpoint?
For all we know they registered his name to receive an allocation - that's how Ferrari works.
Keep in mind could a dealer double the parts price double their service prices double their body shop prices - some things are assumed it's fair to say when the deal was cut no one would assumed dealer would charge a rip off rate.
Feel free to show me or explain why a dealer has the right to charge more - consumers have protection from gouging / deceptive trade.
Porsche claims the GT2RS is not limited - there is no market shortage no trigger that allows ADM so why would a jury not see it as an abusive tactic. I don't think going to court is worth it but the buyer does have reasonable expectations and relied on that dealer to his detriment.
You say the seller did not agree to anything - they took the deposit that's enough :full stop: the dealer can not take money and not perform they have a duty to perform for their customer. That's why they took the money that's why they took the Ferrari the buyer did nothing wrong and if you think otherwise and the dealer used tricky wording they were deceptive making things even worse for them - as I would then believe they are liable for punitive damages or to sell the buyer the car at invoice or dealer sells the buyers car under the guise they can - I would think the buyer here would be entitled to those profits as it was his car not theirs.
Ferrari removed Wynn Ferrari when they find out the owners were flipping - they sold a La Ferrari to Naples who asked 5M. The question is does Porsche even care - my guess is they do not!
Last edited by nuvolari612; 10-07-2017 at 12:23 PM.
10-07-2017, 09:28 AM
#191
Burning Brakes
A full-page color ad in the national edition of The Journal, if purchased on a noncontract basis, costs $248,060.32, according to The Journal's Web site. A black-and-white ad costs $193,797.12.Jul 19, 2006
According to The New York Times' media kit, full-page ads in the nationwide edition run for about $150,000 before the added cost for color.
......
LOL
According to The New York Times' media kit, full-page ads in the nationwide edition run for about $150,000 before the added cost for color.
......
LOL
10-07-2017, 09:50 AM
#192
Rennlist Member
A full-page color ad in the national edition of The Journal, if purchased on a noncontract basis, costs $248,060.32, according to The Journal's Web site. A black-and-white ad costs $193,797.12.Jul 19, 2006
According to The New York Times' media kit, full-page ads in the nationwide edition run for about $150,000 before the added cost for color.
......
LOL
According to The New York Times' media kit, full-page ads in the nationwide edition run for about $150,000 before the added cost for color.
......
LOL
10-07-2017, 10:39 AM
#193
Race Director
Dark knight, that’s huge.. ‘UGE even.
Best idea I’ve read in The Whole thread. Asymmetrical warfare indeed. If anyone wants to buy billboard space at r.reunion with all the list of Rennlist grievances.. with this one fellow’s situation right at the top, I’m in.
Every Porsche exec will have to walk past it.
Every automotive and Porsche-related journalist will have to write about it.
Every attendee will be talking about it.
This mainline dealer will come out in supplication pose on their knees.
A few bucks per Rennlist member.. talk about giving this forum and it’s dedicated porschephiles a voice!
Best idea I’ve read in The Whole thread. Asymmetrical warfare indeed. If anyone wants to buy billboard space at r.reunion with all the list of Rennlist grievances.. with this one fellow’s situation right at the top, I’m in.
Every Porsche exec will have to walk past it.
Every automotive and Porsche-related journalist will have to write about it.
Every attendee will be talking about it.
This mainline dealer will come out in supplication pose on their knees.
A few bucks per Rennlist member.. talk about giving this forum and it’s dedicated porschephiles a voice!
10-07-2017, 11:30 AM
#194
Rennlist Member
As much as I wanted to hate it at first, and still do in some respects, manufacturers could learn a thing or two from Ford and how they handled the new GT.
Everybody knew the car was an instant collectible, that would be sold to the highest bidders by any dealer with an allocation, basically. Collectors, speculators, etc would purchase 90% of them and the dealers would keep every penny of the ADM that purchasers paid.
Instead, Ford had the application process, they vetted potential buyers, sifted out all the speculators and dealership CEOs only buying them because they could, from the people who "deserved" them the most. Ford priced the car at a price they thought the market would pay and then selected people who were willing to pay it.
Due to the laws that were put into place at a time when they were necessary, OEMs cannot sell directly to consumers in many states. The GT was still sold through a dealer, technically. Because Ford had already chosen who the buyers would be, there was no market to hold bidding war, so they could only charge MSRP. The dealer never had the chance to add ADM. the buyers still paid for it though, the markup was built into the price. Instead of being a line item on top of the MSRP that the dealer chose, Ford kept it all in their own pocket.
Everybody knew the car was an instant collectible, that would be sold to the highest bidders by any dealer with an allocation, basically. Collectors, speculators, etc would purchase 90% of them and the dealers would keep every penny of the ADM that purchasers paid.
Instead, Ford had the application process, they vetted potential buyers, sifted out all the speculators and dealership CEOs only buying them because they could, from the people who "deserved" them the most. Ford priced the car at a price they thought the market would pay and then selected people who were willing to pay it.
Due to the laws that were put into place at a time when they were necessary, OEMs cannot sell directly to consumers in many states. The GT was still sold through a dealer, technically. Because Ford had already chosen who the buyers would be, there was no market to hold bidding war, so they could only charge MSRP. The dealer never had the chance to add ADM. the buyers still paid for it though, the markup was built into the price. Instead of being a line item on top of the MSRP that the dealer chose, Ford kept it all in their own pocket.
Great way for an OEM to receive close to market-prices for their limited edition cars and to remove dealers out of the picture under the current (dealer-racket) laws.
10-07-2017, 11:41 AM
#195
Let me add my 5 cents - as i see it he had clear understanding that after some time he will be able to sell that car with big premium that is why he made so many mistakes and dealer just using it - is it wrong ? not sure here... will anyone take advantage if amount is big enough, with risks including legal and reputation not as great ( what percentage of all buyers of that dealership will happen to read that post in GT3 forum thread , what they'll do? refuse to buy a fresh new GT3 for good price from that dealer because of questionable post on some thread ) ? i see banks doing it all the time if gains braking some compliance restriction outwitting possible fine they are doing it -> called risk management... I might be wrong but to me that is most probable setup ( again it is as I see it - I was wrong many times before ).