Buying a GT2 RS: My Unfortunate Dealings with Porsche of the Main Line
10-07-2017 | 12:04 PM
#196
Racer
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 360
Likes: 60
Let me add my 5 cents - as i see it he had clear understanding that after some time he will be able to sell that car with big premium that is why he made so many mistakes and dealer just using it - is it wrong ? not sure here... will anyone take advantage if amount is big enough, with risks including legal and reputation not as great ( what percentage of all buyers of that dealership will happen to read that post in GT3 forum thread , what they'll do? refuse to buy a fresh new GT3 for good price from that dealer because of questionable post on some thread ) ? i see banks doing it all the time if gains braking some compliance restriction outwitting possible fine they are doing it -> called risk management... I might be wrong but to me that is most probable setup ( again it is as I see it - I was wrong many times before ).
Especially if a thread like this goes viral.
I can't see how anyone can come to the dealers defense here. It's a really greedy move. These cars are luxuries and purchases of impulse and passion, client relationships are hugely important.
10-07-2017 | 12:08 PM
#197
Track Day
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 24
Likes: 2
From: FL
Probably not but it may affect their decision to buy a regular 911 or macan etc. from the dealer which is their bread and butter.
Especially if a thread like this goes viral.
I can't see how anyone can come to the dealers defense here. It's a really greedy move. These cars are luxuries and purchases of impulse and passion, client relationships are hugely important.
Especially if a thread like this goes viral.
I can't see how anyone can come to the dealers defense here. It's a really greedy move. These cars are luxuries and purchases of impulse and passion, client relationships are hugely important.
10-07-2017 | 01:10 PM
#199
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 3,283
Likes: 277
From: Taxoronto
Dark knight, that’s huge.. ‘UGE even.
Best idea I’ve read in The Whole thread. Asymmetrical warfare indeed. If anyone wants to buy billboard space at r.reunion with all the list of Rennlist grievances.. with this one fellow’s situation right at the top, I’m in.
Every Porsche exec will have to walk past it.
Every automotive and Porsche-related journalist will have to write about it.
Every attendee will be talking about it.
This mainline dealer will come out in supplication pose on their knees.
A few bucks per Rennlist member.. talk about giving this forum and it’s dedicated porschephiles a voice!
Best idea I’ve read in The Whole thread. Asymmetrical warfare indeed. If anyone wants to buy billboard space at r.reunion with all the list of Rennlist grievances.. with this one fellow’s situation right at the top, I’m in.
Every Porsche exec will have to walk past it.
Every automotive and Porsche-related journalist will have to write about it.
Every attendee will be talking about it.
This mainline dealer will come out in supplication pose on their knees.
A few bucks per Rennlist member.. talk about giving this forum and it’s dedicated porschephiles a voice!
10-07-2017 | 01:50 PM
#200
Race Director
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 13,162
Likes: 3,887
As much as I wanted to hate it at first, and still do in some respects, manufacturers could learn a thing or two from Ford and how they handled the new GT.
Everybody knew the car was an instant collectible, that would be sold to the highest bidders by any dealer with an allocation, basically. Collectors, speculators, etc would purchase 90% of them and the dealers would keep every penny of the ADM that purchasers paid.
Instead, Ford had the application process, they vetted potential buyers, sifted out all the speculators and dealership CEOs only buying them because they could, from the people who "deserved" them the most. Ford priced the car at a price they thought the market would pay and then selected people who were willing to pay it.
Due to the laws that were put into place at a time when they were necessary, OEMs cannot sell directly to consumers in many states. The GT was still sold through a dealer, technically. Because Ford had already chosen who the buyers would be, there was no market to hold bidding war, so they could only charge MSRP. The dealer never had the chance to add ADM. the buyers still paid for it though, the markup was built into the price. Instead of being a line item on top of the MSRP that the dealer chose, Ford kept it all in their own pocket.
Like has probably been beat to death, ADM exists because people are willing to pay it, but manufacturers are partially to blame. They inflate demand with artificial exclusivity by limiting production instead of letting the market dictate both. If the manufacturer was actually opposed to the dealers charging an ADM they could easily remedy it by increasing production to match demand. It's a tricky thing to get right though, because exclusivity is a large motivator for the purchase in the first place.
I find it somewhat interesting what Porsche did though. I seem to remember the head of the GT dept saying that people who purchased 911Rs only to sell them for a profit would be "punished". I was a bit annoyed when I first heard this because of the limited production nature and the reasons mentioned above, but I think the 991.2 GT3 was the punishment. By offering a manual, and the touring pkg, they ruined the secondary market for the 911R. There will always be a niche for hyper-limited cars that go to the best customers and mega-rich collectors, and they'll always demand a premium.
Everybody knew the car was an instant collectible, that would be sold to the highest bidders by any dealer with an allocation, basically. Collectors, speculators, etc would purchase 90% of them and the dealers would keep every penny of the ADM that purchasers paid.
Instead, Ford had the application process, they vetted potential buyers, sifted out all the speculators and dealership CEOs only buying them because they could, from the people who "deserved" them the most. Ford priced the car at a price they thought the market would pay and then selected people who were willing to pay it.
Due to the laws that were put into place at a time when they were necessary, OEMs cannot sell directly to consumers in many states. The GT was still sold through a dealer, technically. Because Ford had already chosen who the buyers would be, there was no market to hold bidding war, so they could only charge MSRP. The dealer never had the chance to add ADM. the buyers still paid for it though, the markup was built into the price. Instead of being a line item on top of the MSRP that the dealer chose, Ford kept it all in their own pocket.
Like has probably been beat to death, ADM exists because people are willing to pay it, but manufacturers are partially to blame. They inflate demand with artificial exclusivity by limiting production instead of letting the market dictate both. If the manufacturer was actually opposed to the dealers charging an ADM they could easily remedy it by increasing production to match demand. It's a tricky thing to get right though, because exclusivity is a large motivator for the purchase in the first place.
I find it somewhat interesting what Porsche did though. I seem to remember the head of the GT dept saying that people who purchased 911Rs only to sell them for a profit would be "punished". I was a bit annoyed when I first heard this because of the limited production nature and the reasons mentioned above, but I think the 991.2 GT3 was the punishment. By offering a manual, and the touring pkg, they ruined the secondary market for the 911R. There will always be a niche for hyper-limited cars that go to the best customers and mega-rich collectors, and they'll always demand a premium.
Regarding that last part, considering 911Rs are still selling in the high $300s, like just last week, I don't think the GT3 Touring is having much of an impact on that market, nor do I think PAG was punishing 911R owners by launching it. Hell, PCNA said they were gonna fix things after the RS flip fest and then they went and sold a bunch of 911Rs to the very same flippers. Who flipped the cars. The only truth in this whole mess is that you shouldn't believe a single word that comes out of PAG/PCNA on the topic.
10-07-2017 | 02:25 PM
#201
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 16,873
Likes: 4,161
Dark knight, that’s huge.. ‘UGE even.
Best idea I’ve read in The Whole thread. Asymmetrical warfare indeed. If anyone wants to buy billboard space at r.reunion with all the list of Rennlist grievances.. with this one fellow’s situation right at the top, I’m in.
Every Porsche exec will have to walk past it.
Every automotive and Porsche-related journalist will have to write about it.
Every attendee will be talking about it.
This mainline dealer will come out in supplication pose on their knees.
A few bucks per Rennlist member.. talk about giving this forum and it’s dedicated porschephiles a voice!
Best idea I’ve read in The Whole thread. Asymmetrical warfare indeed. If anyone wants to buy billboard space at r.reunion with all the list of Rennlist grievances.. with this one fellow’s situation right at the top, I’m in.
Every Porsche exec will have to walk past it.
Every automotive and Porsche-related journalist will have to write about it.
Every attendee will be talking about it.
This mainline dealer will come out in supplication pose on their knees.
A few bucks per Rennlist member.. talk about giving this forum and it’s dedicated porschephiles a voice!
10-07-2017 | 04:10 PM
#202
Platinum Dealership
Rennlist
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Rennlist
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,899
Likes: 2,603
From: Exit Row seats
as a dealer and a buyer I can interject (where I am allowed, as I have been told repeatedly not to get involved)
1) contracts are subject to manipulation and interpretation, and it seems like the OP had a lot of wool pulled over his eyes here- but yes getting vague language helps nobody. and leaving 100k + for that long helps nobody. I wish you the best and this is a sad situation.
2) I am a VERY small dealer compared to these other dealers, and wish I could actually just fulfill my order bank. I wish I had the cars. But, I didn't pay 50M for my store and as such I didn't buy a store that sells 1200 cars a year like Auto Gallery or Beverly Hills etc. My store sold 105 new cars in 2016. So, I'm looking at a 5+ year ramp up of selling base 911's before ' I earn the right ' to get GT car allocations.
3) Martin- yes there is a formula for GT allocations, everything is based off volume and if you don't sell volume you don't get allocations. Bottom line.
4) 250k is egregious. I mean holy F- I have been offered a lot of allocations for GT2RS from VIP guys through their dealer at 150k over, which is also egregious.
5) "The GT2RS is not limited" well it might not have a number plate but I can't just go get one like a Macan...or a 720S for that matter. It is limited. I have no available allocations that I can spec yet beyond VIP guys. If you want a 488 Spider, pay deposit and wait in line. if you want a lambo performante, make a deposit and wait in line. if you want a 720S- you pay 20k up front and then wait in line, PTS everything, go faster than anything, etc. Sure you are risking a potential depreciation due to more top dog McLarens coming out...but hey in the mean time how many miles will you drive it?
6) we are addicted to these GT cars because they are as close to perfect, price, performance, practicality, and reliable- as you can get. Good luck if you buy an AMG GTS for 150k to get 95k for it after 5k miles. That's cold bathwater.
7) nobody in the public will sympathize with the rich (relative to a jury) dealer and rich (relative to a jury) car buyer. It will be messy and expensive.
8) There is no perfect solution to any of this other than the "We'll make as many as we can for approved depositors" thing but as someone wrote above- lots of dealers have invested 5-50M in facilities alone. They will end up getting that money back somehow with either volume, service business, or straight up manipulation of the ADM game.
1) contracts are subject to manipulation and interpretation, and it seems like the OP had a lot of wool pulled over his eyes here- but yes getting vague language helps nobody. and leaving 100k + for that long helps nobody. I wish you the best and this is a sad situation.
2) I am a VERY small dealer compared to these other dealers, and wish I could actually just fulfill my order bank. I wish I had the cars. But, I didn't pay 50M for my store and as such I didn't buy a store that sells 1200 cars a year like Auto Gallery or Beverly Hills etc. My store sold 105 new cars in 2016. So, I'm looking at a 5+ year ramp up of selling base 911's before ' I earn the right ' to get GT car allocations.
3) Martin- yes there is a formula for GT allocations, everything is based off volume and if you don't sell volume you don't get allocations. Bottom line.
4) 250k is egregious. I mean holy F- I have been offered a lot of allocations for GT2RS from VIP guys through their dealer at 150k over, which is also egregious.
5) "The GT2RS is not limited" well it might not have a number plate but I can't just go get one like a Macan...or a 720S for that matter. It is limited. I have no available allocations that I can spec yet beyond VIP guys. If you want a 488 Spider, pay deposit and wait in line. if you want a lambo performante, make a deposit and wait in line. if you want a 720S- you pay 20k up front and then wait in line, PTS everything, go faster than anything, etc. Sure you are risking a potential depreciation due to more top dog McLarens coming out...but hey in the mean time how many miles will you drive it?
6) we are addicted to these GT cars because they are as close to perfect, price, performance, practicality, and reliable- as you can get. Good luck if you buy an AMG GTS for 150k to get 95k for it after 5k miles. That's cold bathwater.
7) nobody in the public will sympathize with the rich (relative to a jury) dealer and rich (relative to a jury) car buyer. It will be messy and expensive.
8) There is no perfect solution to any of this other than the "We'll make as many as we can for approved depositors" thing but as someone wrote above- lots of dealers have invested 5-50M in facilities alone. They will end up getting that money back somehow with either volume, service business, or straight up manipulation of the ADM game.
10-07-2017 | 05:20 PM
#205
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,435
Likes: 818
From: Central New Jersey
10-07-2017 | 06:04 PM
#206
Race Car
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 3,530
Likes: 29
From: New York
Once you leave Porsche you realize how much crap you have been dealing with. Irony for me is as a new potential customer to Ferrari I can get a 488 GTB in the Spring, 488 Spider in 12 months and a 812 in 24 to 30 months. No games - just need to place my deposit and wait. Going in Monday to test drive a 488, 488 Spider and F12 to decide which way to go.
10-07-2017 | 06:31 PM
#209
Race Car
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 4,194
Likes: 2,331
From: California
FYI: The "failing" NY Times broke a new digital subscription record in Q1 of this year, adding 308,000 net digital-only news subscriptions, which increased the company's circulation revenue by 11%.
10-07-2017 | 06:33 PM
#210
Race Car
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 4,194
Likes: 2,331
From: California
Good to hear!