968 Supercharger Kit Development
11-24-2009, 01:45 AM
#406
Three Wheelin'
Everyone thinks they can look at Carl's pics and make their own kit. The car has been on the roads since 1992 and here is the first supercharger that allows retention of the AC. I really doubt someone else could make a kit without copying Carl's idea, which would be shameful.
There's no defensible reason for copying Carl's approach, neither ethical nor technical.
I can guarantee that you will not achieve the same results as Carl for cheaper. Carl has the experience and ability to define the objective, break it down, and achieve it simply. Few people can do that. And the kit is priced fairly.
Of those few that can or could successfully reverse-engineer Carl's kit, 80% would realise that buying Carl's kit is the best bang for the buck.
The remaining 20% would tackle the challenge of engineering their own solution just for kicks. But then why copy someone else's work? Why not optimise it for YOUR application?
Me, I'm looking at using the Rotrex supercharger on my S2 as it will fit where my AC compressor used to be, and allow use of the original AFM. Interested to see if Carl comes up with a solution for the S2, however I suspect that the potential market is much smaller...
11-24-2009, 06:29 AM
#407
Nordschleife Master
Trust me you DO NOT want to keep the AFM.
There's a reason why a MAF kit adds so much power to a 944 turbo without even changing boost.
The 968's ditched the AFM as well.
The barn door sucks.
More air FTW!
There's a reason why a MAF kit adds so much power to a 944 turbo without even changing boost.
The 968's ditched the AFM as well.
The barn door sucks.
More air FTW!
11-24-2009, 10:41 AM
#410
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I'm not sure I believe the hype about the barn door AFM. I think it does a good job and replacing it with a MAF and no other mods save tuning might get you a few HP but not bunches. To be fair you'd have to tune the AFM car as well and only look at the difference. Getting that little flap open is not that hard.
In the case of a supercharger kit you might need more flow and the ability to measure the air beyond what the AFM can manage so it might be a necessity for the kit. That would mean a MAF kit and chips added to the price of the SC kit (which might mean a much costlier kit marketed to a generally lower budget customer.)
Personally I think a proper AFM replacement should be a clever box that has a MAP and IAT as well as the MAF input and should have some big maps that can handle the weather extremes the car might see.
Not just a harness and a chip. Maybe it can all be done with a chip but I think that'd be imperfect in many ways.
The E30 and some of the Miatas use AFMs, I wonder if there are verifiably good MAF kits for them yet?
-Joel.
In the case of a supercharger kit you might need more flow and the ability to measure the air beyond what the AFM can manage so it might be a necessity for the kit. That would mean a MAF kit and chips added to the price of the SC kit (which might mean a much costlier kit marketed to a generally lower budget customer.)
Personally I think a proper AFM replacement should be a clever box that has a MAP and IAT as well as the MAF input and should have some big maps that can handle the weather extremes the car might see.
Not just a harness and a chip. Maybe it can all be done with a chip but I think that'd be imperfect in many ways.
The E30 and some of the Miatas use AFMs, I wonder if there are verifiably good MAF kits for them yet?
-Joel.
11-24-2009, 01:29 PM
#411
+1
There's no defensible reason for copying Carl's approach, neither ethical nor technical.
I can guarantee that you will not achieve the same results as Carl for cheaper. Carl has the experience and ability to define the objective, break it down, and achieve it simply. Few people can do that. And the kit is priced fairly.
Of those few that can or could successfully reverse-engineer Carl's kit, 80% would realise that buying Carl's kit is the best bang for the buck.
The remaining 20% would tackle the challenge of engineering their own solution just for kicks. But then why copy someone else's work? Why not optimise it for YOUR application?
Me, I'm looking at using the Rotrex supercharger on my S2 as it will fit where my AC compressor used to be, and allow use of the original AFM. Interested to see if Carl comes up with a solution for the S2, however I suspect that the potential market is much smaller...
There's no defensible reason for copying Carl's approach, neither ethical nor technical.
I can guarantee that you will not achieve the same results as Carl for cheaper. Carl has the experience and ability to define the objective, break it down, and achieve it simply. Few people can do that. And the kit is priced fairly.
Of those few that can or could successfully reverse-engineer Carl's kit, 80% would realise that buying Carl's kit is the best bang for the buck.
The remaining 20% would tackle the challenge of engineering their own solution just for kicks. But then why copy someone else's work? Why not optimise it for YOUR application?
Me, I'm looking at using the Rotrex supercharger on my S2 as it will fit where my AC compressor used to be, and allow use of the original AFM. Interested to see if Carl comes up with a solution for the S2, however I suspect that the potential market is much smaller...
11-24-2009, 07:11 PM
#412
Rennlist Member
The thing that I don't get about all this is: I can't see where anyone has advocated this approach (reverse-engineering Carl's work). I've been following this thread and haven't seen it.I for one am trying to figure out how to embezzle from myself to raise the measly $5K to install Carl's supercharger. I don't have the patience to re-read all these posts to catch this intellectual-property-theft thread, but my seat-of-the-pants is that we all respect his work and appreciate the breakthrough in pricing (and A/C accommodation) he's come up with.
So why all this slagging of people who, for all appearances, aren't there?
I must be missing something. Is this going on back-channel?
So why all this slagging of people who, for all appearances, aren't there?
I must be missing something. Is this going on back-channel?
11-24-2009, 07:30 PM
#413
The thing that I don't get about all this is: I can't see where anyone has advocated this approach (reverse-engineering Carl's work). I've been following this thread and haven't seen it.I for one am trying to figure out how to embezzle from myself to raise the measly $5K to install Carl's supercharger. I don't have the patience to re-read all these posts to catch this intellectual-property-theft thread, but my seat-of-the-pants is that we all respect his work and appreciate the breakthrough in pricing (and A/C accommodation) he's come up with.
So why all this slagging of people who, for all appearances, aren't there?
I must be missing something. Is this going on back-channel?
So why all this slagging of people who, for all appearances, aren't there?
I must be missing something. Is this going on back-channel?
11-25-2009, 03:39 AM
#415
Team Owner
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: one thousand, five hundred miles north of Ft. Lauderdale for the summer.
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I am buying one of Carl's superchargers right after about $ 15,000 dollars of other luxury stuff is done,
which also includes getting a Minelab GPX 4500... these expensive toys.
which also includes getting a Minelab GPX 4500... these expensive toys.
11-25-2009, 09:20 AM
#416
Rennlist Member
To add to this thread, I think a lot of people are waiting to take the plunge not wanting to be the 1st to try this. Well, it looks like 4 people have already purchased the kit. Not sure if any of them post here. In either case, looks like Carl is getting some ROI and with his new stage II, things should only get better. I plan to trying one myself but have to wait till early next yr to try it.
Regards.
Raj
Regards.
Raj
11-30-2009, 03:12 PM
#418
Developer
Thread Starter
Damian:
I'd like to see your PM response to John. I betcha I could add to it!
All:
The unscrupulous firm that is ripping-off our design now first contacted our supercharger manufacturer and attempted to buy the same SC head unit we use direct from them. We are the sole North American dealer for Raptor, and the manufacturer declined to sell them units at my price.
Since then, this firm has now stated they will be building their kit with a Rotrex supercharger.
A nice unit for bottom end, but it does not have as high of adiabatic efficiency as the Raptor.
This will make the installation of an aftercooler mandatory for the safety of the high-compression 968 engine.
Ultimately, expect a higher kit price and lower performance at the mid-to-top end.
I'd like to see your PM response to John. I betcha I could add to it!
All:
The unscrupulous firm that is ripping-off our design now first contacted our supercharger manufacturer and attempted to buy the same SC head unit we use direct from them. We are the sole North American dealer for Raptor, and the manufacturer declined to sell them units at my price.
Since then, this firm has now stated they will be building their kit with a Rotrex supercharger.
A nice unit for bottom end, but it does not have as high of adiabatic efficiency as the Raptor.
This will make the installation of an aftercooler mandatory for the safety of the high-compression 968 engine.
Ultimately, expect a higher kit price and lower performance at the mid-to-top end.
11-30-2009, 03:26 PM
#419
Developer
Thread Starter
We have an installation going into an S2 that is fitted with a 968 engine in the next few months.
A customer has received a discount for being the first, and we will be collaberating with him on the fitment of our kit into the 944 S2. Pictures will follow. Expect it to take a bit more time as I am only consulting on the install and not performing this 944 install personally.
A customer has received a discount for being the first, and we will be collaberating with him on the fitment of our kit into the 944 S2. Pictures will follow. Expect it to take a bit more time as I am only consulting on the install and not performing this 944 install personally.
11-30-2009, 03:42 PM
#420
Developer
Thread Starter
I have heard "but im worried about the 968 head gasket" at times during this process.
Honestly, if fueled correctly you should expect no problems whatsoever at these boost levels.
But what about higher boost levels? Those that want to take this kit and dial it up higher?
I should have you covered: the 928 head gasket would have to undergo very minor changes to fit the 968.
Check out this thread to see what we have already done:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...the-928-a.html
Honestly, if fueled correctly you should expect no problems whatsoever at these boost levels.
But what about higher boost levels? Those that want to take this kit and dial it up higher?
I should have you covered: the 928 head gasket would have to undergo very minor changes to fit the 968.
Check out this thread to see what we have already done:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...the-928-a.html