America GS Consolidated Thread
 

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/emblem.jpg

The America GS 3.8 Hardtop Roadster, is a one of a kind car. It is a cabriolet (manually operated) with a Porsche factory built removable hardtop (with an electric sunroof and a heated rear windscreen). It has a special Porsche factory built roll bar covered in the America GS purple leather and embossed with the Porsche script. As of 2005 the car has approximately 350 miles on it.

I am pretty sure that most of you track and await all updates from Robert on the work he is doing in his car. From time to time I see questions on the car and the parts. We all know, from Robert comments, that there is not going to be a book about this car (there should be one)... I figured that the best we can do is try to consolidate all we know about it in one thread for everyone to enjoy.

Many of us here keep an eye for any of Robert’s posts to get a glimpse of the car. It was been in a few books as well but only with brief comments, never covered in full detail (specially after all the work he has done to it). The amount of people involved, the work with Porsche, some of the mystery, the use of the technology in racing, etc… We are really fortunate to have him share time, comments, and photos with this global community.

If I miss any photos, comments or details please chime in and update the thread with comments and photos I might have missed. There are old threads where the photos are missing (Rennlist crash or move to new servers :( )

And here is to the hope of seeing this beauty in person one day :cheers:. Anthony (Cobalt) had the opportunity to see it in person, as you can read in one of the threads.

I know Robert has made many post here in RL, and this is not a compilation of all his threads, just those specific to the America GS. But if you have the time, search on his threads, we are very lucky and honored to have him here sharing what he does and his insight or stories of timed shared with great legends in the automotive business.

And the company behind these parts? Cartridge Limited

Why is he calling it Humpty Dumpty? Humpty Dumpty because it was apart and put back together again... no falls, no walls, no crash involved.

Humpty Dumpty Is Coming Back Together
Humpty Dumpty On The Move
Carbon Fiber Oil Tubes
America GS Wheels
Nuts
Pacem In Terris - We Have A Hood
Carbon Fiber Fan Shroud
Pieces Of The Last 6 Parts Of Humpty Dumpty Part I
Humpty Dumpty Wheels
Other Titanium Pieces
Which Finish Would You Prefer For Anti Roll Bars?
Let No Stone Go Unturned For Humpty Dumpty
Carbon Fiber Oil Cooler/AC Condenser Fan
Rear Hinges For Humpty Dumpty
Humpty Dumpty Titanium Hood Hinges
Another Potential Weight Saving. Can Anyone Answer The Question?
New Humpty Dumpty Parts
Weight Reduction In The Transmission Mount
Would Like Your Opinion As To What Part Goes Into Humpty Dumpty
The 5 HP Gadget
Transmission Goes Back Into Humpty Dumpty - Almost!
Humpty Dumpty Front Suspension Goes Together
Humpty Dumpty Interior Pictures
Humpty Dumpty Mirror
Humpty Dumpty Headlight
Humpty Dumpty Update - titanium license plate frame
Humpty Dumpty Rear Wing Blade
A Special Brake Part
Humpty Dumpty Exhaust
Every Detail Counts - ABS pump bracket
A Special Humpty Dumpty Part
Humpty Dumpty Update
Humpty Dumpty Rear Damper Mount
Humpty Dumpty Fuel Cell
A Few MORE Humpty Dumpty Pictures
My Engine Is Finally Coming Back Together -- And I Know It's Too Clean
Gold Plated Carbon Fiber Heat Shields
Torque Converter Housing
Brake and water reservoir bracket
Engine Testing Starts
Engine Success 445hp! :thumbup:

Threads with missing photos :( Very sad. The initial threads are missing the photos or linked to incorrect photos (anything that was uploaded later with the same file name is getting picked up by the threads...)

Carbon Fiber Firewall/Electric Circuit Control Box
Wiring Upgrade -- Incorrect Pictures Attached
New Wiring Update
Carbon Fiber Oil Tank
New Carbon Swing Arm
carbon-fiber-kevlar-fuel-cell.html
What Engine for the America GS?

Let the photos posting begin:

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/_n1g0523.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/_n1g0585.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/engine_111.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/028rl_copy1.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_5p.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/brake_cooling_4.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_0591rl.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ca...manifold_1.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/gpcf_2.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ca..._coolers_5.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/picture_040_copy2.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/picture_096_copy1.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/picture_122.jpg

Jaime, you have too much time on your hands. Come polish my wheels or something productive :icon107:

Actually, I don't... but working long hours in front of a computer... so I need a break from time to time. RL is it. Helps me keep my sanity.

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/017rl.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/021rl.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_cutoff.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_14.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/hardtop_1.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/cartridge_wing_1.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/brake_cooling_1.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_7.jpg

Light weight, Titanium, Carbon Fiber, Gold, aluminum lithium... words/phrases you will see used often when you start going over the threads... and no, forget about trying to buy any of this stuff... some of the people here have been lucky enough to receive something for their help testing a part... I hope those of you that have a piece of the GS in your cars to chime in and post a photo of the part.

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/nut_1.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/000_0128.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/05_copy5.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ca..._caliper_2.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/cartridge_cf_fan.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_0364.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/oil_breather_cap.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/xb8j1606.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ca..._bracket_1.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/picture_066_copy3.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/front07.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/picture_208.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/xs2y0875.jpg

Those brake calipers are just kick ass sweet!!! It's almost criminal how clean all the parts are.

A few more:

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_21.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_8p.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/picture_027_copy4.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_19p.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/dscf0174.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/hpi_2.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/hdm.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/picture_070.jpg

And a few more:

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_10p.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_11p.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_12p.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_13p.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/hpi_1.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/picture_037_copy4.jpg

I hope that in the process of uploading I don't repeat too many photos...

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_wheel_1.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_wheel_21.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/gsw_1.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/gsw_2.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_0293_copy1.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_0303_copy2.jpg

And a few more:

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_1p.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_2p.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_18p.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/picture_073.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/picture_056.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_15.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/gpcf_1.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/gpcf_3.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/gpcf_4.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/picture_209.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/picture_193.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/picture_028_copy4.jpg

And a few more... swing arms

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ca...wing_arm_3.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ca...ing_arm_10.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_6p.jpg

A few more of the front setup...

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_4p.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/ags_22.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/brake_cooling_3.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/brake_cooling_5.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/pi...014_copy11.jpg

are those ceramic rotors?

From an entry Robert made in 2002:

Made out of aluminum lithium (aluminum lithium saves approximately 500 grams per caliper and is the material of which all F1 calipers are currently made).

From a 2002 post...

A few interesting info bits (these are take from posts from Robert... so any "I" you see is Robert... not me :D)

The America GS 3.8 Hardtop Roadster was built a few years after Dr. Porsche's 80th birthday present, the Panamericana. With that extra time, Herr Lagaay (H. Lagaay, retired Chief Stylist of Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG) was able to devise a different exterior color, multi-color hand silk-screened primary leather, accent secondary leather, colored seat belts and zipper for the America GS -- which he (and I) thought more than successful than the Panamericana. Hence, while both cars have a type of green on the exterior, they are quite different and the interiors are also quite individual.

With regard to the seats, they were available in several versions of Type 964, are fixed back and, to at least me, are very comfortable while being simultaneously supportive. As to the backs, you are correct -- unlike any of the other versions which were either painted in a color or left black, those of the America GS are completely leather clad (with the racing harness eyelets trimmed in the purple leather). Finally, in this regard, special thanks is due to 3M Corporation which assisted in this effort by sending a 10 gallon drum of a special glue to Porsche AG for use in making the covering of the backs of the seats a permanent affair.

Front Suspension:
- one piece cast titanium uprights with carbon fiber cooling ducts
- ceramic ball wheel bearings
- titanium adjustable ball joints
- carbon fiber a arms
- titanium/aluminum drop links
- titanium/aluminum track rods
- integrated 300M ion impregnated axle/center screws
- titanium centerlock hubs with integrated titanium driving pegs
- 350 mm x 34 mm carbon ceramic brake disks with floating 2618 aluminum bells mounted with titanium bobbin systems with air gaps
- carbon fiber/titanium venturi-effect integrated left and right suspension links, cross-member and under-tray with access door
- titanium fasteners

to this will be attached:

- carbon fiber struts with integrated angle adjustment
- true 4-way adjustable titanium/aluminum dampers with blow off pistons --electron beam welded hard chromed titanium outer shafts and titanium hard chromed inner shafts -- connected by stainless steel braided Raychem covered hoses with machined fittings with –4 titanium quick disconnects to reservoirs with integral adjusters
- aluminum integrated front spring caps/spacer sleeves/nut sleeves
- beta c titanium main and helper springs with ultra high molecular weight plastic transition pieces
- aluminum 4-way spring rate adjusters with integrated titanium locking mechanism
- aluminum lithium monobloc 8 titanium piston calipers with air gaps, two pads per side, quick release pad pins, titanium quick disconnects in place of bleed screws and titanium quick disconnects in the lightweight stainless steel braided Raychem covered hoses with machined titanium fittings between the calipers and the chassis hard lines
- 4130 zinc passivate coated anti roll bar with 5-way adjustable 4130 machined ends with Orkot® bushings, titanium bushing stops, titanium mounting brackets and titanium fasteners
- titanium/steel center lock nuts
- one-piece forged magnesium center lock wheels with titanium pressure shims

Engine:
1. Blueprinted And Dynamometer Tested
2. America GS Engine Management System Programmed For Use With America GS Tiptronic® Transmission
3. America GS High Flow Hot Wire Induction System
4. Reduced Weight Cam Deck
5. America GS Drilled Camshafts
6. Reduced Weight Adjustable Rocker Arms
7. America GS Cylinder Heads With Copper/Beryllium Valve Seats
8. America GS Cylinders
9. America GS Lightweight Pistons
10. America GS Metal Matrix Composite Wrist Pins
11. America GS Titanium Connecting Rods
12. America GS Aluminum Gears
13. America GS Aluminum Sprockets
14. America GS Titanium Intake Valves
15. America GS Titanium Exhaust Valves
16. Uprated High Pressure Fuel Pump
17. Uprated Fuel Rail
18. Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator
19. America GS Engine Oil System
a. America GS Carbon Fiber/Titanium/Aluminum Engine Oil Tank With Uprated Anti-Aeration Cone
b. Increased Pressure And Scavenge Engine Oil Pump
c. America GS Aluminum High Efficiency Triple Engine Oil Cooler System
d. America GS Aluminum Engine Oil Cooler Distribution Manifold
e. America GS Aluminum Engine Oil Lines With Machined Aluminum Fittings
f. America GS Machined Aluminum Engine Oil Line Fitting
g. America GS Machined Aluminum Oil Filter Console Fittings
h. America GS Machined Aluminum Thermostat Fittings
i. Goodridge G-Line XF Engine Oil Hoses With Goodridge Machined Aluminum AN Fittings
20. Uprated Gaskets
21. America GS Increased Flow Air Filter Box With Induction Snorkel And Increased Air Flow Lid
22. BMC America GS Increased Flow Air Filter
23. Plastic Valve Covers
24. Crankshaft, Flywheel, Pressure Plate, Connecting Rods, Connecting Rod Ends And Pistons Balanced
25. Engine Cleaned, Ported And Polished
26. Engine Case Windage Adjusted
27. Engine Case Dovetailed
28. Goodridge G-Line XF Fuel Hoses With Goodridge Machined Aluminum AN Fittings
29. America GS Lightweight Alternator With Titanium Shaft
30. America GS Titanium Pulleys
31. America GS Titanium Cam Deck Fasteners
32. America GS Titanium Chain Housing Covers Fasteners
33. America GS Titanium Fasteners
34. America GS Titanium Washers
35. America GS Titanium Engine Casing Studs
36. America GS Titanium Engine Exhaust Studs
37. America GS Titanium Engine Support Mounting Studs
38. Silver Plated Jet Nuts
39. America GS Carbon Fiber/Aluminum Engine Support/Engine Shroud/Air Conditioning Compressor Mounting Platform
40. America GS Titanium Air Conditioning Compressor Support Bracket And Fasteners
41. America GS Carbon Fiber/Titanium Engine Mounting
42. America GS Carbon Fiber/Titanium Solid Engine Mounts
43. America GS Titanium Engine Mounting Fasteners
44. Castrol RS Synthetic 10W60 Racing Engine Oil

Transmission:

1. Tiptronic® Transmission – Blueprinted, Polished, Reinforced And Dynamometer Tested Race Version
2. High Performance Software For Tiptronic® Transmission Including:
a. Specially Programmed For Use With 3.8 Liter Engine
b. Permits Driver To Hold Transmission In Gear In "Tip" Mode – Transmission Will Not Override Driver
c. Higher Performance In Automatic Mode
d. Transmission "Learning" More Rapid In Automatic Mode
3. Torque Sensing Differential Mounted To Ring Gear With Specifically Made Stainless Steel Bolts
4. Carbon Fiber/Titanium Side Transmission/Differential Housing
5. Wire Electro-Discharge Machined 300M Transmission Output Flanges
6. Lightweight Flywheel
7. Titanium Transmission Linkage Brackets
8. Aluminum High Efficiency, Lightweight Transmission Oil Cooler
9. Goodridge G-Line XF –8 Hoses With Machined Aluminum AN Fittings From Transmission To Transmission Oil Cooler
10. 8 Aluminum Quick Disconnects Between Transmission And Transmission Oil Cooler
11. Titanium Transmission Fluid Fill Plug
12. Carbon Fiber Transmission Fluid Pan Including:
a. Titanium Banjo Level Indicator Fitting
b. Titanium Drain Plug
c. Aluminum Fasteners
13. Titanium Transmission Fasteners Throughout
14. Titanium Transmission Mounting Fasteners
15. Titanium Differential Fluid Fill Plug
16. Magnetized Aluminum Differential Fluid Drain Plug

But as this was being done, the assembled group had three more "simple ideas" -- which, together, will save over a 500 grams of weight:

1. Replace the black steel mounting arms with titanium equivalents.
2. Modify the carrier so as to reduce weight.
3. Remake the mounting bracket to reduce its size and the size of the Delrin® mount.

Some quotes from posts from Robert:

On the question of why not go with more CF parts (Doors, Roof, etc.)

I'm sure there is a story behind the choice in interior colors....

Wow that was a lot of work and I agree RL helps me keep my sanity too.

You deserve a first hand viewing of the car for all the efforts. It is truly a remarkable piece of work. The GS and his turbo are so much more impressive in person.

Wish I could add more pictures but all I have to contribute is the picture of the spare seats which are hanging next to the hardtop which is a priceless piece by itself.

I will PM him this thread and see if he can add some more info on the interior. He mentions Herr Lagaay being responsible for it... but I could not find additional details.

Iirc there was a connection between the GS and the Panamerica concept, which was a similar shade of green. But I could be wrong.

It is mentioned in the thread above. the color was based on the panamericana and is the most incredible color I have seen. I hear that not even the people that created it can recreate it though.

More

This has just been made in carbon -- 2.14 lbs vs. 0.32 lbs! And thank you Dr. Gagnon for pointing it out. P.S. And the titanium fasteners will save anotherr few grams -- and will neither rust nor corrode.

Robert, thank you for those additional photos. It is the first underside photo of the car... and better quality photos at that.

What a project--sorry, but I missed the actually weight. Know what it is?

Now under 2200 lbs (1000 kg).

Robert, outstanding work - is the car ever on display or shown to PCA? :cheers:

where's Robert?
 

Anyone heard from him lately?

Part of me is amazed- a beautiful custom car! The other part of me doesn't understand the point of this- with such low mileage and meticulous detail/cleanliness, it seems the intent is to make this a piece of art never to be driven? I have mixed feelings, but the first part of me is glad it's being built!

when I spoke to Robert a few months ago, he indicated no one would ever drive it. The engine is so unique, replacing it wouldn't be possible. He said "it's automotive art" and I'd agree.

Keep in mind that, as Robert has mentioned, a lot of the work done here was to test tecniques and parts for high-end motorsports initiatives... and in some areas, to push the envelop with the engineers.

I too feel a bit sad the car will not see any use. But I am glad it exists and that Robert has been kind enough to share all the work done.

And I know, "It is just a car!", but it is an engineering marvel... just reading about the different materials used, the work done to build these parts, it is amazing.

Hope to see it one day in the flesh or the CF...

My goodness. This is simply a jaw dropping project!

Wonder if any of those parts are for sale & the eventual prices to put it together!

I also wonder how do those carbon fibre suspension parts hold up in real life street/track days.

Parts not for sale to mere mortals... those are engineering exercises that influence motorsports parts his company sells.

Can't answer the second part of your question...

Robert, I know that you mentioned that the car could or could not make it to the Parade. Were you able to finish the work in time for the parade?

I was wondering the same thing.

Thanks to Bob Gagnon.

P.S. Did not make it to the Parade; maybe next year.

bob you need to do the ECU and Tip housings in CF since they are pot metal steel :)
(i'll give you a call this weekend)


nice stickers on them though

A great use of carbon is very impressive.

Hydraulic Parking Brake. Lever is titanium as are the fasteners.

very cool will the M/C be hidden or exposed?

M/C?

master cylinder?

If so, it will be in the trunk as normal. This valve, however, will be hidden and only the lever will be exposed and reset into the carbon fiber center tunnel piece. The titanium lever, by the way, has the Porsche Script engraved into it by Porsche AG.

Try this before and after -- 1 pound of saving!

964 part number!!??

Nice! Would be nice to see what it looks like once installed. Is completely different from the standard e-brake lever.

Thank you for sharing :bigbye:

How would you empty the oil tank? I can't tell by the photos, but it seems the oil drain plug is gone.

M/C = Master Cylinder

very neat on the second part.

Nice!

Can we see the whole car or can someone point out the link that shows the whole car?

Not that many photos of those around... I remember seeing photos of the complete car in a book. But can't remember the name of the book.

There are a number of old photos in this book taken long before the transformation. great picture cocktail table book but I found a good portion of the info was majorly incorrect. IIRC They even go as far as saying some 256 American GS were made?

BTW it also has some very nice photos of Robert's black slope cab.

Thank you! That is the book where I saw the photos. :thumbup:

New carbon fiber bracket for carbon fiber fire extinguisher. My photograhy is miserable but the piece is magnificent -- even the nozzle.

Damn, Robert. Can't you guys figure out how to incorporate the stickers into the CF, They must add .01 ounces each. :roflmao:

No seriously, as always amazing workmanship and beauty in design.:thumbup:

Torque converter housing...

https://rennlist.com/forums/attachme...t-image015.jpg

worth mentioning - the 930 was the last made as well (i believe the last of the pre-964 911's actually)
Bob has the the Last of the 911/930 series and the Last 964, Seinfeld only has the Last aircooled car (a 993)
***Bob Correct me if i am wrong there***
i Don't think that Torque converter picture is recent is it? - Bob did you finally decided to sand cast the case in Mg?
<at home all week with a new born, so things are slow :)>

Torque converter component picture is brand new. As are the following pictures of the billet aluminum stator.

The 930 is the last one ever built. The America GS is certainly the last 964 completed by the factory but not the last 964 built. As to Mr. Seinfeld's car being the last air cooled, some at the factory have raised a bit of doubt.


P.S. CONGRATULATIONS! And far, far more important than any car or any other thing!!

Thanks Bob & well put- we are blessed with 2 girls (Ainsley & Now Quinn). I have been lessening my involvement with cars for them :), soccer and such until we can start Karts next year for Ainsley (if she wants!)

Interesting on the GS - and on the 993 that seinfeld owns.

The stator is a thing of beauty - weigh to stock?

luckly i have some time tomorrow for the F1 race (brawn!) and the kirkland concourse
:)

I hope he contact me if he decides to do it in Mg?

Congrats on #2. You might need to sell me that cup car with 2 girls. boys are cheap.

Thanks & I hope not.
I'll probebly get something with a rear seat though! It does eliminate the GT cars for the time being as I don't think I should have 3 2seater porsches.

As I wrote to my friend Hartmut Kristen this evening, "As, for years, we have talked about weight reduction and weight optimization, enclosed is a titanium part that, though, at an even greater extreme, could have been made of carbon fiber with a bonded titanium insert, might amuse you." Yes, perhaps I am getting lazy, only titanium speed clips.

https://rennlist.com/forums/attachme...7-2009-256.jpg

Are you planning on redoing those covers in a lighter material? Those boxes (with all the internals) are heavy...

Those were done especially for me -- we'll probably leave them alone.

And times many hundred Speed clips :)
I think underestimated my workload bob I'll ring you back tomorrow

Wow, you're a pretty insane boy ;)

Just curious: I went through the thread and didn't find anything about the final weight of the car.
I would have dreamt to have a partner like you when I was racing... that would have been a blast.

Did you plan on replacing the steel sheet panels with glued composite ones ?
After a brief study I determined that it was cheaper and more efficient than to replace whatever you can with composite/titanium parts. I use regular racing parts (magnesium, aluminum) but invested about 10 thousand USD on the chassis to get rid of almost all the metal panels and the savings (weight and money) is much worth it. Also the car is extremely stiff, because of the large (1 inch) honey comb that has been used to mold the panels.

Now, it's certain that my car doesn't look like yours (from far).

Congratulations, it's an exceptional quality of work!

-luc

Present weight of the vehicle is below 2200 lbs. Final will be a bit lower. The steel panels were not replaced with composites because that would not have furthered the R & D aspects of this endeavor. Should this and other "easy" things have been done, the weight could easily be below 1800 lbs (with air conditioning, leather, stereo, real seats, Tiptronic, etc.).

yeah...
You should use my chassis then :)
It's not fancy like your car, but is really stiff and damned light.

I love your drive trains. Beautiful job !
It's funny how the work from motorsport always looks so drafty (have you ever seen a factory race car?? The interior and the finishing are always atrocious) while your car looks more like some Bugatti stuff : everything has to be beautiful.

Congratulations, again.

Luc.

For several years supplied parts to Porsche AG for factory race cars (do not do so currently because reduced numbers of cars and price rather than better quality compromise). So I know well what they look like. Have also done quite some work with Bugatti -- the leadership of which is truly dedicated to quality.

Also race cars at Porsche has become a real juicy business, they make a lot of money on that and let private teams win for them, while they used to build factory owned racing cars. I believe the last one has been the 98 gt1. This means that it's been ten years now that track Porsches are tuned production Porsches. This also explains why Audi wins every year.

The titanium torque converter marches forward.

Bracket for engine compartment electric box.

Underside.

Brake reservoir bracket.

Awesome, as always. May I just forward you my christmas list?

Can I PLEASE see the whole thing?

When it is assembled and finished.

Looking forward to it.

Can not wait.

New engine compartment electric box and interior bracket. Exterior fasteners, by the way, are machined titanium hexes with slots permitting opening by wrench, screw driver, dime, etc.

Very nice!!

What are the next major steps pending? Transmission close to being back together?

Love the slots in the fastners - hugely thoughtful and really helpful when you need to get to it.
i hate the stock system - a pain to get to.

really nice work of course :)

are there any problems with corrosion when the Ti fasteners mate into steel or Al or Mg threads?

Got a magnifying glass?

That's an old photo (at least 5 years old) - the GS is different now - good data mining though

Hi out there
I would like to know what the VIN of the America GS is...
Can someone help ?
Kind regards
Juergen M.Osmer

Why would you like to know the VIN?

Perhaps he's looking to purchase and would like to run a Carfax.

I was going to ask him the same... not like there is a need for that...

Yeah, right! :roflmao:

Or maybe he is starting a registry of America GS cars.... single entry...

After you finished with the GS, can I get all the old parts so I can put my own GS together. LOL

I would like to know the VIN too and i tell you why:

In Adrian Streather´s Enthusiasts Companion "Auftragsnummer 964" this car is told to be the very last ever build 964 Carrera 2 Turbo Look. ( Euro Spec. America Roadster )

In meantime i know that this story is not true! So i simply want to know if it is a REAL 964 650 and a car for my Register.

Norbert

Treat it in your register as you wish or do not include it. Frankly, I do not care.

I would be proud if i could list this super great car, Robert - can´t imagine why you react so rude ...

Probably because it benefits you, and why would that matter to Bob?

Why do you need more than has already been shared? Count yourself lucky, it;s a bit of a privilige in my book that this much has been shared.

kevin

New Carbon Fiber CAM Covers
 

Doing a redesign of the valve covers in carbon. Attached are screen shots of the CAD. The top hats, by the way, will be titanium. In total, 50% weight savings over the plastic versions.

Robert,

Do you redesign all of your parts, or does Porsche share their original drawings with you?

Great work, as always!

Cheers,
Dave

Awesome, as always robert. If you need testers, you let me know.

The answer is several fold. First, when the 964 was developed, Porsche did not use CAD. Second, in some instances, Porsche then, as today, has certain components designed by its suppliers which, at least in the days of the 964, were also without CAD. Third, in most cases, neither Porsche nor its suppliers have retained the 2D drawings from 20 years ago.

This being said, when they were available, original drawings were used as reference points. Notwithstanding, all original parts were scanned and the scans were checked by various methods including coordinate measuring machines (CMM) against actual parts and, if available, old drawings. In turn, the scans are imported into Catia, leading CAD software. That, however, is where the "fun" begins -- translating a component into another material (e.g., carbon composite, alloys of aluminum, titanium, combinations of the foregoing, etc.) entails redesign including finite element analysis (FEA) for proper functionality and weight optimization due to the different properties (e.g., strengths, stiffness, hardness, durability, malleability, expansion/contraction, etc.) of the new materials and, of course, of the processes to be used to produce the new components. Finally, the finished design is available in 3D and 2D to be used as appropriate for making tooling (e.g., for composite parts, casting, forging, etc.), machining parts, etc. Lastly, as appropriate, testing is conducted and modifications made if necessary.

Robert, I have always loved your car! I have some of the first publications on this car. Your car has inspired me to purchase 2 factory Roadsters and build 2 other Roadsters. Today I have a 400hp speedster that’s been in storage for 13 years. 10 year collection of rare parts. You could park mine next to your GS and build two ultra light weight 964’s. Not sure why you are replacing the whole floor? Is that correct? Scott

Link to the specific thread added to the first post.

Engine testing has started :bowdown: :thumbup:

https://rennlist.com/forums/attachme...t-engine-1.jpg

https://rennlist.com/forums/attachme...t-engine-2.jpg

[mg]https://rennlist.com/forums/attachments/964-forum/426122d1268370807-new-america-gs-engine-it-starts-cartridge-test-engine-3.jpg[/img]

https://rennlist.com/forums/attachme...t-engine-4.jpg

https://rennlist.com/forums/attachme...t-engine-5.jpg

is that dual drive distributor a candidate for a wt. saving redesign?

We are thinking of doing coil over plug.

Progress and a bit of the reverse. The titanium torque converter is, at long last, almost ready for final assembly and electron beam welding. The new hoses, fittings and oil cooler manifold are being made. An aluminum heat sync is in machining as is a magnesium adaptor ring for the transmission. A new material allegedly capable of withstanding more than 600º C (1112º F) and short blats up to 1000º C (1822º F) is being tested for a variety of uses. I am considering using the lightweight windshield that Porsche AG supplied to me several years ago. The only major, and it is major, stumbling block is the engine. The first test engine was a failure as parts supplied did not come even close to living up to what was promised -- and, further, they were more than a month late. So, now, back to the engine dyno to try several other ideas. Hope the next dyno run will be within a month. Also, as the final configuration of the engine is in doubt, the carbon fiber valve covers are at a halt until it is determined whether or not to go coil over plug.

Sorry to hear. Was it an issue with expected performance that was not achieved or a reliability issue?

Actual performance fell far short of promised.

Easy H.P.
 

This did the trick in my car. She's for sale. http://motorcars101.com/images/spdeng.jpg

Roughed titanium impeller for the torque converter.

I think I need to go sit down now robert. Stunning, as always.

yes, stunning - nothing like the dull gleam of Ti

Now this side is fully machined and ready for polishing.

How far from being ready to go back in the transmission?

How is the engine coming along?

Probably 8 to 10 weeks as there are several more steps including assembly and electron beam welding and this is far from first on the list of priorities. As noted, the first engine was completely unsatisfactory due to certain third party supplied parts miserably failing to perform as promised/advertised. Now we are back to only Porsche parts and I hope the next test engine will go on the dyno sometime after May 11.

Bob,

So is it still 4.0l? were you expecting more than 392bhp from the first engine, could I ask what area you were hoping to get to?

thanks

Kevin

The first engine, 4.0 liter, which was built entirely from Porsche supplied parts, was approximately 392 HP. Then certain critical parts from another source were bought with the promise (and alleged dyno sheets backing up the promise) of in excess of 425 HP. In actuality, engine two achieved less than 360HP (also out of 4.0 liter), i.e., considerably less than engine one. Those parts, which, I might add, were of poor quality, were returned for a refund. Now engine three is being assembled with only Porsche supplied parts and the hope is to exceed 400 HP as well as to reduce moving mass.

The titanium torque converter made quite a bit of progress this week.

And more.

Robert, what is the weight of the new part versus original? What was the weight saving #? Also, any improvements made in its design or it was made to replicate the original part?

Approximately one third.

was any other surface treatment besides polishing used?

Like many I've followed this cars for years and watched an endless stream of beautiful components being developed.

Perhaps when it's finished it should probably be considered a Linton 964 that has been fitted with a few components from Porsche! :thumbsup:

No, it is very much a Porsche and could not have been done without the help of many engineers and others at Porsche AG. And, with the engineering done, the 20 year old Porsche weighs 1000 lbs (453 kg) less than the GT2RS even with the weight of the Tiptronic transmission and of the specially made Porsche AG roll bar (covered in leather).

One of the ways in which the Tiptronic may be weight optimized is through the use of ceramic bearings.

Almost finished machined magnesium transmission adapter ring.

Nice piece Robert. hogged out of Billet??

I could have cast that for you but it would have looked like a casting. A high quality casting but a casting none the less.

Looking forward to seeing the final product.

Machined from billet. What color should we use for the coating - thinking of aircraft lime green.

Almost finished machined magnesium transmission adapter ring. ??

Geez, Bob - what's left to do? Oh, coating...

The work displayed in this thread is simply stunning. I could look at this all day.

My suggestion would be not to add a color that is not present in the car... you now have the color of the car, some blue in the hose fittings, green in the springs, purple in the fuel tank...

You know what!? In second thought, go for it! Lime green would look great! :burnout:

Thank you. And I so happy about the engine -- 445 Real (i.e., on a certified engine dyno) HP and 438 Nm of torque from a normally aspirated air cooled two valve engine. Now for the design and manufacture of the final lightweight parts so as to substantially decrease mass, particularly rotating and reciprocating mass.

https://rennlist.com/forums/attachme...ankshaft-1.jpg

Oh man! http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/drool_copy1.gif

I've heard that modern Mg alloys are much more corrosion resistant than the ones on the older 911s (e.g. engine cases & 911 transmissions).

- Is this true? And, if so, what did they do to improve the alloys?

Bob what are doing for the Clutch/flywheel? How will the Tip handle the RPM up/down?

There have been advancements in controlling alloy purity and corrosion reduction however it is still magnesium and susceptible to corrosion if not properly protected. This has been known for close to 40 years and has been applied to military aircraft since the 70's and became more popular in the 80's. Studies going back as far as the 40's were being performed but limited application never amounted to much development of lower corrosion higher purity alloys. This also depends on which alloys are being used for what purpose. Some alloys are basically the same as they were back in the 30's others are just a variation of a common alloy controlling the primary corrosion causing elements such as Iron, Manganese and Copper. by reducing the quantity of the element and controlling the ratios it helps control corrosion although acceptable levels are still 50 mpy for a simulated one year corrosion test.

Some new alloys have been developed but practical applications are limited and cost is high.

Dow metals standardized chemical conversions or surface treatments for magnesium alloys way back in the 40's. These will reduce corrosion considerably but if the surface treatment is damaged and exposed to the elements it will corrode.

The GS America is mentioned on page 166 of Classic and Sportscar magazine July issue. The article profiles an owners 964 Speedster, which was commissioned and built after Speedster production had ceased; it was custom built though the Exclusiv program. (It's a RHD Speedster, btw).

I'm quoting the article

'Production of right-hook Speedsters ceased in June 1993 so, when the order for one more car came in, Porsche Exclusive was commissioned to hand-craft it in Werk 1, the very building in which Porsche was launched. Alongside would be the 964 America 3.8 GS Hardtop Roadster, ordered by a New Yorker and scheduled to be the last 964 made.'

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/dscf0174.jpg

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/cartridge_cf_fan.jpg

Robert - isn't this the engine fan?

No. It is the fan used to cool the oil cooler in the right front fender and the A/C condenser in the left front fender.

OH, thx. No sense of scale, so hard to tell the actual size of the thing.

Interesting weight savings

Porsche Lithium Ion Battery saves 22 lbs.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/mart...y-for-starting

circle back to -> https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...d-battery.html

Attached are the latest work in progress pictures of parts of the titanium torque converter. The "damper" part of it including the springs are also being made in titanium.

After calculations showed that the weight savings for all four combined was less than 100 grams, the valve (cam) covers will remain plastic.

But even those are not the original covers. Your team made those, correct?

https://rennlist.com/forums/attachme...t-engine-4.jpg

They are Porsche parts.

CAD for world's first carbon fiber air box for Porsche air cooled engine.

:thumbup:

What about fan/alternator housing. Or the dual distributor housing (or still going with coil over plugs)? I mean, what is left to redo for weight savings?

Robert

Could you give me a bit more information on this please. Sounds more than a simple OEM replacement.

c. America GS Aluminum High Efficiency Triple Engine Oil Cooler System

Something to think about for high ambient heat countries.

Thx
Andrew

Induction system coming along. Rough (i.e., before machining and fitting of parts such as actuators for dual resonance flaps) air box and air filter housing.

And one more.

That's awesome!

Absolutely awesome!! :bowdown:

what manf. techniques were used for the CF? those are not Fiberforge pieces, are they?

Nothing to do with Fiberforge.

Robert,

If you make everything out of lightweight materials that can be lightweight materials...what do you figure the final weight will be?

Rob
Magnificient work. Any updates on your work ?
Im sure we are all waiting for more tasty pics and updates.
Regards
Ken

INSANE

Ok is any of this for sale.....drool!!!

The short answer is "No"

the GS is an engineering exercise into what is possible for Cartridge LTD. It is not to produce 964 parts for sale. rather show what can be done in the automotive sector across many applications.

that said cartridge does produce select items for sale however the volume is truely limited and none of the parts are for the 964 platform (Axles for the 996/7 Cup/RS/RSR series, 4 way shocks for 6/7 platforms, etc.)

Bob may have changed the model as well, so i cannot comment on a stock parts list, but cartridge LTD. is an engineering company and not a parts supplier per say.

Bob feel free to correct me if i am wrong here.
(i can claim in transit jet lag as a wait for my flight from Bobmay to Sao Paulo)

A fascinating exercise in material science! I'm assuming that many of your discoveries (on materials) are shared with the factory so that they can also benefit from it. The only issue I would find with that is that since the vehicle really isn't driven then the wear aspects of these changed parts are never challenged sufficiently to know their actual utility in the real world.

Beautiful work!

Porsche is a Customer (as well as other top level Automobile manufactures) of cartridge. however they are not given free of charge since this is a business, of course.

On the testing question- Structural / Wear components have been thoroughly tested to exceed the standards set by the customer (for instance Porsche). critical parts on the GS (brakes and engine components for example) are tested to the same or more stringent levels than Porsche (Many on the Porsche test benches) In this Cartridge is a Client of Porsche, utilizing its testing facilities as well.

As far as real world examples goes, cartridge Driveshaft’s (with ceramic bearings, Ti, etc) have been used and proven more durable than the factory parts in racing in the US and Europe (including 24hr races). Dampers are in Use as well for various marques as well.

The Components for the GS were made to a level exceeding what would be required for in a 24hr race (LeMans)

Bob, let me know if i misspoke on any of the details

Fantastic! It's good to know we have such world class engineers out there in NC!

NYC - Bob is the head of engineering and product development

I shoul mention that Bob Owns cartridge Ltd and is the driving force behind i as weññ

Hello is Bob's car closer to completion as of yet?
I met Bob I guess about 17 years back at a swap meet where he had the America GS Roadster and his
black 1985 BMW M6 w/21 miles both delivered on a trailer to the meet simply for people to ogle and gawk.
I recall being a might pissed because at the time I also had a black '88 M6 and felt anyone who chose to own one of those cars no less the porsche without driving it was very,very eccentric and missed the
real reason for it's existence....
Oh yeah the America GS Roadster was exceptional even back then but the turqoise and purple color
scheme left a lot to desired..
just my .o2 Bert

New throtlle bodies.

Wow!

It must be fun making this stuff!! :-)

Excelence engineering work!

Test air box on test engine. Next dyno runs to check effect of two ring piston, rods specfic thereto and different exhaust systems.

A work of art.

Now we can see if aluminum metal maxtrix composite (which is being used for various pulleys and other things) can reduce the weight of the transmission case by approximately 10 lbs.

can you divulge the final wt. savings on the engine rel. to stock?

Do not yet know.

:eek: ... jaw dropping ...

What about fan blade and housing? Light weight alternator already in place?

Thanks again for sharing the progress.

How many did it come with from the factory?

Oh yeah, and is it true this car was the last 964 built as a model year 1995 car. Thought I read that somewhere.

Robert,

I know the 964 Cup cars had a different air box configuration where-by they basically eliminated half of the stock box. This supposedly gained some hp on the stationary dyno. Now Porsche have gone to a "ram air" philosophy with the 996/997 GT cars. Are you/the engineers planning on following suit once the engine is installed into the car?

Is this thread dead?

Robert is a busy guy, pretty sure he will post something soon, relax :)

The thread is not dead. Good news is that with a bit more R&D (read a new piston design and a new exhaust design permitting the space necessary for equal length headers while also providing passenger compartment heat [both of which would not be possible with the original style heater boxes], etc.), HP is in excess of 460.

:rockon: :bowdown: :thumbsup:

Thank you for the update!

Glad to hear you're still around Bob.

Regards


Kevin

The test headers with the original carbon fiber/titanum muffler mounted on a test engine. When the test units are completed, they will be dynoed with the test engine. Assuming satisfactory results, they will be scanned and a rapid prototype will be created. In turn, tooling, including molds, will be made and everything from the engine block through the tail pipe will be made in a ceramic material used in military applications and that can withstand 1200 degrees C (2192 F) constant, that weighs aproxmately 1/4 that of steel and less than half of titanium (we should save a bit more with elegand design) and that has superior heat insulation properties to steel or even titanium.

Wow...just wow!
Thank you for the wonderful pictures.

Whatever happened to your carbon fiber primary muffler with the ceramic coated and laser drilled pipe? Did the muffler hold up to the heat cycling and maximum temperatures?

The carbon muffler was made of a material capable of enduring approximately 300 C (572 F) and was combined with an insulation material. Having said that, during the development of the engine, I was also working on a potential military vehicle and, in this connection, came across a material that can take 1200 C. As a result, the entire exhaust system, from the head to the tail pipe, will be made of this material. As such, the carbon fiber muffler saw only very limited use, i.e., not enough to say it was sufficient for constant and continued use.

From the Porsche Facebook page: "Icon of its era: this 911 „American Roadster GS“ was a one-off car for a US collector."

I must confess to being pleased to have this car called an "icon of its era". Having said that, I am even more pleased that, through the work of good engineers around the world, the America GS, though more than 20 years old, has a power to weight ratio better than a Carrera GT, better than a Type 997 GT2RS and better than the upcoming 918 Spyder.

Very impressive Robert, and this with a cabriolet too.

And if I get my last wish and we can engineer pneumatic valve springs into the engine the resultant HP wll give a power to weight ratio even better than that of the Bugatti Veyron.

Not sure if a link to FB will work here, but those that are on Facebook, check out the post on: A story from the past: the last ever built 911 Turbo (Type 930)

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/930__rl1.jpg

You need a "Last 930 Consolidated Thread" Jamie, then Bob can tell us what exactly was done on the car :typing:

Maybe some pics too.

Sorry, I don't have enough details on that one. Just what Bob told me over the phone some years back, and I was not taking notes :)

What information would you like?

Info on what was different on your car as compared to other 930s. We got the running commentary on the 964, so something like that would be extremely interesting too.

Thanks
Andrew

The list is too long to put up.

Bob, really enjoyed reading your build and hope you don't mind me adding some comments.

I think you'll find when designing and making a full exhaust system using this new hi-temp composite material it will weigh more than if you made it from hydro-formed, fabricated 0.4-0.6mm inconel.

I've seen part of a header system made from the material you describe about 7yrs ago and the results were quite disappointing. Technology moves on so hope you can make it work.

I know of only one material out there that has this sort of performance, without giving it away would I be right in saying its made only by a certain French company??

Re Pyromeral, you are correct, it is not appropriate for a variety of reasons.

^Good work Robert.. Eccentric but good.

Just went through this thread for the first time & I must say that I'm stunned by the engineering & execution.

I have a question regarding the steering wheels on both the GS and 930 (assuming your car is the one on a recent Pano cover); were these 'special wishes' wheels? I'm asking because I have one also & have never been certain if it was an original factory part. Yours are the only others I've ever seen.

Thank you for the eye candy.

Something must be cooking ... It's been too quiet round these parts ;)

:) I always look for updates here... I hope it is all well with Robert and we can see an update soon.

I'll check on the latest engine test with Bob...

There is a tremendous amount going on. Porsche Engineering and I have a potential defined path forward which includes, among other things, entirely new four valve heads, a new valve train including pneumatic valve springs and hollow titanium valves and, of course, a modern ECU with the inputs and outputs required for the engine. In short, it could be a rebirth of the air cooled engine at between 500 and 520 normally aspirated HP. The only question now is should it be done and the potential commercial application of it.

Have you looked at the "Intelligent Valve Actuation" system from Camcon?

Looks like a development part.

At those numbers, Robert, how do you cool the engine effectively? Especially when idling?

best
Andrew

That, indeed, is one of the engineering challenges.

Pneumatic valve actuation would be awesome. I can see the benefits of systems that are retro-fittable to current engine designs from a fuel consumption/emissions standpoint.

Great video! Got to be *the* most major fundermental change for the combustion engine ever. Imagine mapping your own cam profiles like you do for ignition and fueling :-)

Its neat, but still requires air reservoirs or similar, why not go to an electrical solenoid operated system, and negate more hardware still, surely this is more responsive, more configurable, and lighter??

K

Robert,

Could you post a photo of the gauge cluster in your 930 slantnose with the ignition turned to the right so that everything is lit up? I am really curious to see/know if anything shines through the leather or is it all external bulbs like the boost gauge?

thanks!
--jason

Sorry that I will not be able to do this for quite some time. The gauges however are not backlit.

Hmmmm ... Interesting .... Could it be away in Europe at the kindly Weissach cousins? ;)

No worries, i was just curious if they were.

Any thought on water cooled heads ala 935 etc.?

Pneumatic actuation sounds cool - what pressure source you thinking?

Just read through this thread, very interesting project!

I'd love to have the carbon air box and filter housing, well actually the whole engine!

It would interesting to get an idea of the cost of all the development work. knowing this was a special 964 right from the beginning and obviously very valuable, all of these specially designed one off parts must make this the most expensive 964 on the planet!

Looking forward to any updates.

I have started to think of a truly interesting air cooled engine. 4 liter, 4 valve heads, pneumatic valve springs.

:thumbup: More, more!

Wow!

some years have passed and all "America Roadsters" are found now for TL-R. Finally i could verify the America GS as a real "America Roadster" - 964 650

smaragd-green metallic with linton-green leather - i could not do anything wrong :) 10 Z-orders :thumbup:

It is No. 270 of 326 cars and the very last for MY. 1992 (so there is a partial truth in Adrian Streathers book)

i´m happy (an still no one cares :) )

Best Norbert

(Turbo-Look Register)

Just recently featured on Jalopnik :cheers:
http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/ame...122351/+orlove

Any more updates ?

Our latest 4 liter, 2 valve engine was shipped to Germany this week to begin advanced testing and to upgrade the ECU to the latest available. After the results are seen, the 4 valve will be considered.

Would the 4 valve design considered have air or water cooled heads?

Is Bosch making the ECU?

It will be a Bosch ECU.

If we go to a four valve head, it will be air cooled. We are also looking at other potential valve train technology. Notwithstanding, however, the engine will remain air cooled.

I hope I will not again be distracted because this should have been completed a long time agao.

Glad to hear you're progressing Robert ... the 4.0 is the right number!

I think so.

Glad to see you are back!

Thank you, very glad to be back -- and to get this up and going again.

Several weeks ago, we dynoed our air cooled, six cylinder test engine -- 4 liter, 2 valve, normally aspirated. Result was 430 HP with street gas and a catalytic converter. There are several modifications that various engineers have suggested which should result in approximately 440 HP. Given parts that have to be added, made and those that require modification, the next dyno run will be January. After that, on to the 4 valve version which, if successful, will be available to anyone.

Can't wait for this!

Is this your intake plenum?

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi...0424&source=48

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi...0424&source=48

No this not. Nor, by the way, is it our original airbox, which was but a first step, but which is not appropriate for this range of HP.

Notwithstanding, Jeff Gamroth does excellent work.

Some pictures of our original induction.

:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

Engineering works of art... very happy to see this thread being updated. Thank you Robert!

Are those solenoids on the underside of the intake, operating a varioRam-esque air passage array?

i think so!

Robert, Porsche had already explored the 4 valve head technology in the 70's, and their ultimate solution for power and reliability was to at least water cool the heads. Do you plan to do this? I realize there are much more exotic coatings and surface treatments available to valves/valve guides than there were in the 70's, but you cannot argue with thermodynamics regarding power potential, especially if using gasoline.

Our current plan is not to water cool or to oil cool. Perhaps this might be necesary but either would be second choice.

I am curious (assuming you can say it publically) what you've done ot the crank and the cams to lighten them. IIRC, P AG used CAD/CAM on the 964 crank to lighten it - or maybe that was the 993. They are also forming cams now off of a hollow tubular shaft I think.

Finally, have you done anything on the engine carrier at the rear, or to make LED based tail light housings out of FG or CF?

Years ago there was a company Advantec, that I believe based in Canada (?), that built some 4-valve air cooled 911 heads.

I think the issue with these was that heat couldn't be removed efficiently with air from the area between the valve pairs of the 4 valve head .

Pumping oil through this area while still air cooling the balance of the head might have worked better.

I bet you have probably considered this idea though.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f12de9d4bf.jpg

Heat is the issue. All of those things are being considered as are some of the more esoteric materials. P.S. We are running the final base version 2-valve engine shortly (unfortunately, it has been delayed about six weeks waiting for several specially produced parts) to see if we can get above 430 HP.

As to the comment about the engine carrier, that has been carbon fiber for quite a long time. I do not, however, expect to change the tail lights to LED because, candidly, I prefer the old school variety for subtlety.

Re the crankshaft, yes, eventually, weight will be addressed for the 4-valve version; indeed, the initial engine will feature significant weight saving in all areas (i.e., other engines with a lower spec could be offered).

Finally, as to the camshafts, they are already totally sprecialized and that will be continued.

Is a Pankl crank with tungsten inserts on the menu still?

Thanks - it's good to hear the CF engine carrier doesn't crack at all

any estimates on wt. distribution?

I hope some parts will someday be offered for us low cost light weight wannabes in the peanut gallery...

The crank with tungsten is still in the plan.

And, yes, one day, a number of these parts will be available as will be the engine, possibly even the 2 valve version.

Several things have happened this week:

1. We ran the latest dyno test on the 4 liter, 2-valve normally aspirated, air-cooled engine and the results were less than we thought we would get with the new camshafts but we still achieved 443.5 HP.

2. Engineers have some ideas about the 2-valve engine and we expect to get to 445 HP or more on that engine.

3. Work continues in earnest on the design of the 4 liter, 4-valve, normally aspirated, pneumatic valve spring, air cooled engine. Also, additional engineering resources have been added to this effort. We are hoping to achieve 500 HP with that engine.

4. The America GS has been totally scanned as has been an engine. This will assist in the design of the new induction system (air box) for the 4-valve engine as well as possible aero modifications.

5. The new Porsche Classic Radio has been installed and it looks great -- absolutely period corrrect.

:thumbup: Thank you for the update.

just found and read this thread. I'm in shock.. this is amazing.

I am very pleased with and grateful for the work done by and continuing to be done by all of those involved.

Good news. Latest dyno run of Cartridge 4 liter, 2-valve, normally aspirated, air cooled engine on street gasoline and with a catalytic converter produced 455 HP and 453 Nm of torque.

So in theory you could produce a 1/4 or smaller scale model of a working air-cooled engine?

In theory but why?

This thread is simply amazing. Lots of engineering brought to life. Has some of these parts been tested on the track or street or are they just for looks at the moment? Will the engine be a race item only or will street use be also part of the program? Love the form Robert and his team have done but would really like to know if everything functions as it should in real world use. Either way it's cool to see somebody pushing the envelope:thumbup:

Thank you.

Good news is everything functions. Engines (2-valve and 4-valve) will be street engines functioning on street gasoline and with a catalytic converter. As with Porsche street engines, they are being developed for amateur track use, i.e., not for a professional driver. Final test though is intended to be can they survive a 24 hour professional race.

2-valve engine on dyno.

Awesome

Thanks. And, believe it or not, fun.

Actually...thank you

The new engines are pretty amazing. Beyond my ability to fully appreciate..

Back to the America GS, saw some pictures and had some questions. Probably with simple answers. Apologize if they've been covered before.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...6607525154.jpg

Where is the glovebox? There does not appear to be one in the lower kneepad (like airbag-equipped cars), and there is no knob for a non-airbag glovebox. Is there simply just not a glovebox?

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...6734051362.jpg

What is the small panel below the doorhandle?

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...6485772578.jpg

Where is the handbrake? Is it electronic?

The car must have so many interesting facets - I'm sure one could write a book about it and still not cover everything.

No glove box. As to a book, the entire story might make an interesting one.

...

I spoke to Robert a few months back he seems to still be following along. I am hoping he will bring his turbo to our NNJR-PCA 60th anniversary picnic this year. My wife and I hope to make this a stelar event.

Perhaps this time they will have space for me. I tried to come to the 50th but was told they were out of space.

I am saving you as much space as you need. The only thing we can't control is the weather. Stu got rained out at the 50'th but our 55th was fantastic event.

Please call me 212-628-6778

You should let Chris Harris drive it and make a vid.

Hi Robert, any comment on the new Williams/Singer engine? Were you involved at some point?

Would be nice to hear from you again. :thumbup:

+964

This is the coolest thing I've ever seen! Great work!

Have had nothing to do with the Singer engine. As far as my own 4-valve air cooled engine goes, I have stopped work on it because I am too busy on other things. Also, I am trying to determine if anyone else is actually interested in buying such an engine or is it just for my own car.

After a long hiatus to attend to other matters, everyone is back on the 4 valve engine project -- engineers in three countries are hard at work. Also, the rear anti roll bar in carbon fiber and titanium has been completed as well as a way to use equal length headers and have heat in a 964.

Good news to read.

I'm happy too!

"A man must keep a little back shop where he can be himself without reserve. In solitude alone can he know true freedom." -Michel De Montaigne, 1588

Amazing. Do share more photos when you can.

Sorry - because of the confidential nature of the 4-valve development attempt, there will be no pictures. If, however, anyone has questions, feel free to call me at 212-628-6778.

Bob,

I stopped by a few weeks back and saw the work being done. Would love to see the R when all is settled. Best luck with the engine project.

Understood. It was for anything else that you can share photos on. Just love to see the new things that are being implemented in your 964. Like that anti-roll bar.

I am just happy to see you continue to share updates on the progress.

I will post the rear anti roll bar as soon as I have a good picture.

Next meeting of the 4-valve engine team in Europe during the first week of June.

Though I will not have pictures for another few weeks, the weight of the new rear anti roll bar (for use with a Tiptronic) is .878 kg or 1.935659 pounds.

Robert,

When I was doing my extensive exhaust development on the M64 engine, I never achieved the best results with equal length headers in regards to horsepower. Equal length gave a small percentage bump in torque between 4-4400rpm, but lost hp above 6000. I always achieved the best torque curve with 2 long primaries, 2 mid length, and 2 short.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...69a962c5c0.jpg
Though the picture is not great, this gives an idea of the new rear anti-roll bar made from carbon fiber and titanium. All parts are very carefully engineered for proper strength and flex and minimum weight. The titanium parts are "printed".

Is that cool or what!! Thank you for sharing!

Reminds me of this...

For an "old" car, the 964 is becoming increasingly modern.

Indeed it is! Thank you for the update. Can you reveal the wt. reduction with that bar?

also, I lost track of what muffler you finally went with... the CF/Ti piece didn't work out and you were considering inconel (?)

The original rear anti roll bar was approximately 9.4 pounds. The new one is approximately 1.9 pounds. As to exhaust/muffler, the final configuration will not be determined until after the four valve engine is completed and either works or doesn't. My guess, however, is that the headers will be incolnel and the final muffler will be titanium and carbon or titanium and ceramic.

BTW, the original front ARB weighs approximately 15.3 pounds and the new one is expected to weigh approximately 2.5 pounds.

Printed hollow or solid Ti portions, I assume hollow C portions?

Love those mathematical shapes.

Yes

Short update on 4 valve engine progress is that we have ordered the parts for the first test engine and hope to have it running on a test bench by November.

Looking forward to seeing it when it is done. ;)

Latest Update on 4 Valve Engine: parts have started to arrive from various manufacturers. Hope to have all parts in to begin build in late November.

can't wait for November updates..

Same - also hope the date doesn't mean it will be a... turkey!

Hope not.

Is engine being built in USA?

In Germany, America and England.

that sounds super .. English rods?

No. Austrian.

Wow just Wow.
This is probaly the most "kitchen sink" project car I have ever seen...

And if we get our 4-valve engine to work....

Our first test 4 valve, normally aspirated, air-cooled, 6 cylinder engine coming together. Nothing has been done to make it particularly "pretty" or lightweight as it is only for bench testing. If it works, many things can be done to reduce weight, to
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1387929fd6.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...02824176cf.jpg
increase power, to quicken spool up and to make it look good.

Engine is 4 liters. Intake is variable, exhaust is fixed.

Looks great so far. I see you are using the turbo straight blade fan for better cooling. Keep us posted.

:thumbup:

The truth is the fan might be entirely redesigned down the road.

The chain housings look like GT3 parts are you going to use others like the GT3's cam box scavenge pumps, variable cam drive units etc.?

Engine progress -- 4 valve heads are being finished machined as I write this. Hopeful engine will run in January

Brief Update: The supplier machining the head castings was backed up with aerospace work. As a result, we are now approximately one months behind my last estimate.

Glad to hear it's next in line!

Engine now in final assembly. If it works, I might set up a special web site to view it and answer questions.

Not about tracking but, if it works, it should give people more and better information than can generally be given on the larger websites with their various constraints and restraints.

Can't wait, Thanks for sharing Bob.

I could have done a better and simpler job by just saying, "a ****load of people are going to be interested in what you've created" and a website is such a cool way to share it with everyone...

Unfortunately, there has been a delay in assembly caused by a supplier who, equally unfortunately, is the best at what they do, and now I am hoping for a completed engine ready for dyno by the end of the second week of April.

Though I feel a bit like Joan d'Arc on the stake of Rouen, I am now being told that, barring any more issues, the prototype engine will be assembled and ready for dyno by the end of April.

Is your team using incylinder pressure sensors to help set ignition timing?

yes

Initial engine dyno run scheduled for week 20.

My BD week! Looking forward to it :p

Engine going on dyno this week, scheduled to be run next week.

Engine is on the dyno.

Engine running at low RPM to break it in.

Exciting times for sure!

Engine has run at higher RPM.

Congrats!! We're gonna need some video eventually....

lets hear some induction noises!

Hope this works

"soft" exhaust sound??

Not quite sure what you mean.

Robert, I'm very sorry for my english!
I mean that the exhaust sound is not characterized by high frequencies

Thank you.

How's the engine ?

Scheduled to run again on dyno in the next two weeks.

More testing this week. Results increasingly better.

More dyno testing and more encouraging results. The engine will soon go into a car for the beginning of road testing.

Yet more intense dyno testing and people smiling cautiously on two continents.

Post pics.

Sorry no pictures until the engine is ready for public display.

Update: Meeting in November to finalize revisions to current head design.

:corn: a great thread to spend the winter months reading, await news when available :rockon:

Meeting will be this week to complete the latest revisions to the head design.

Great Engine Meeting today. Engineers have come up with ideas to further improve the engine.

Any news ?

Tremendous amount of testing of different metals for various parts of the engine and design of new carbon fiber induction system and carbon fiber oil tank. Better to be thorough now than after the next test engine is assembled.

:corn:

Revised head design completed and sent for casting.

BTW when test engine is ready for prime time, various lightweight parts (e.g., rods, pistons, wrist pins, crankshaft, induction system, oil tank, starter, alternator, etc.) will be added

Good to hear!

Is there anything you can tell us about the oil tank, starter, and alternator - like whether you designed them or if they are commercial units?

Neither starter, alternator or oil tank are standard. Oil tank will, as current tank, be carbon fiber but of a different design. Starter and alternator, which are currently lightweight, will be replaced by more highly engineered even lighter units.

FYI - for a number of reasons, I am posting more and more frequently on Instagram @ robertlinton1.

Thank you. Following there now as well.

BTW, on my IG, there are two videos of the GEN I 4-liter, 4-valve, 4-Cam, Naturally Aspirated, Air-Cooled Engine on dyno. GEN II is scheduled for testing by the end of September.

GREAT NEWS! Engine with Latest Iteration Head Running on Dyno. I have, however, moved to Instagram for several reasons and am at: robertlinton1. Thank you.

Engine revving above 8000.

@robertlinton1

Great news Bob. Unfortunately I don't do Instagram or facebook. I will have to use my sons account to check it out.

Best luck and Happy Holidays.

NEW VIDEO OF 4-LITER, 4-VALVE, 4-CAM, NATURALLY ASPIRATED, AIR COOLED ENGINE ON INSTAGRAM, Wednesday, November 23 at 11 A.M. Eastern Time Zone. @robertlinton1

You might want to look at my Instagram, @robertlinton1, for the latest information about the air-cooled, 4-valve, 4-cam, 4-liter, air cooled, naturally aspirated, high revving, lightweight, flat six engine that we have been developing. There are now three videos although the latest one was without sound. Should be a new one next week. Also, as you look at the 100 kph - 200 kph speed, bear in mind that the test car is an old and heavy 964 with no aero and old tires. The America GS is 1000 lbs lighter, has aero and performance tires.

Thought you might like to hear the sound of the new engine on its first run. Though there are no plans to sell engines, it would fit into any air cooled 911.

Nice

Sounds great Bob.

I am sure it is a winner. I hear Porsche is now supplying engine cases to Singer? It sounds like they should be considering yours.

Though Rennlist people do not seem to be interested in our new 4-valve, 4-liter, 4-cam, naturally aspirated air-cooled engine, tomorrow I will be put a new video (with sound) on my Instagram, @robertlinton1. After that I will not waste your time with such notifications. FYI, with new tires, the 100 KPH - 200 KPH time in the test car, an old 964 cabriolet, is down to 7.14 seconds. Of course, my car, the America GS, weighs 1000 lbs less than the test car, has aero, a far better suspension, better wheels and tires, etc.

Sounds awesome Bob. Will you also make that kind of tests and share results once the engine in the GS?

Could but the results could only be better than what we will see during the present six months of testing.

I am not an IG user but have an account. I will have to check in with you every now and then. The work is always amazing to me. I am always interested in what you have going on.

Thank you.

In addition to the 4-valve, 4-cam, 4-liter, naturally aspirated, high revving, flat six, air cooled engine, I'm doing a 6-speed carbon fiber gearbox which no Porsche, road, race or restomod, has ever had.

Sadly, the demographic isn’t once what it was. Most of the users who haunted the forum when I joined some time ago, have long since left. I myself only look for your updates Bob, and remember fondly our get together in London many moons ago.

Thank you very very much. Also, I can now be found on Instagram: @robertlinton1

Oh, we're interested...

Great photos on Instagram... thanks for sharing.

I agree... amazing photos shared on Instagram. Not only of the 964, but other development on Porsche, and other marquees as well... Oh and also photos of amazing/beautiful watches...

I still like this thread. Great History here. Keep us updated

Thank you. You might like to look at my Instagram - @robertlinton1

It has been a while since I posted here but fondly recall Robert and his amazing project from years ago - I will also be following on Instagram and am grateful Robert allows us the pleasure of following his 20 year journey!

Has Ansgar Wiesen from Germany been involved in this project?

He once made a 4-valve cylinder heads with Schmirler, but abandoned the project over 20 years ago.

This is the head after 8000km of testing:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...af5c42276c.jpg