964 Prices
#2716
Rennlist Member
I get that it's an N/GT but lemme tell you something - they suck on the street. I've driven this one a number of times (https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/m...rs-ngt/1128797) and it's just not a fun street car with the full cage, etc and lord knows that Zweck car is never gonna see the track, which is the only place it would be enjoyable. Anybody buying that car is buying it as a low mileage investment piece, nothing more. If you want a rubystone NGT, you can get one for 250k-300k pretty easily, just with more miles on it (but not *high* miles).
#2718
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lol what? $480k is good value for a Ruby 964 RS? That's insane. You can buy a darn good '73 RS for that kind of money (or maybe slightly more depending on color) and as someone who has driven both a decent amount, I would buy the '73 in a heartbeat. I know this is a 964 forum and all, but there are some seriously rose-tinted glasses on these cars right now.
I get that it's an N/GT but lemme tell you something - they suck on the street. I've driven this one a number of times (https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/m...rs-ngt/1128797) and it's just not a fun street car with the full cage, etc and lord knows that Zweck car is never gonna see the track, which is the only place it would be enjoyable. Anybody buying that car is buying it as a low mileage investment piece, nothing more. If you want a rubystone NGT, you can get one for 250k-300k pretty easily, just with more miles on it (but not *high* miles).
An NGT Clubsport is not a great street car. Not practical, comfortable, or safe. It’s really only at home on a track. Next owner of the car at Zweck will likely not use it on the street or track. Just as garage art to maybe speculate on. The sweet spot for street driving IMO is the basic car even though it is the most produced variant by a longways. A USA Cup car in street trim is also another great choice as it is basically identical to a RoW RS, but I’m a bit biased . The Touring IMO has too many creature comforts (sound deadening, dual-mass flywheel, undercoating, etc.) added back in to where it’s getting a bit away from what an RS should be. Also you were able to add back power steering, radio, A/C, and a sunroof.
Remember someone a couple years ago paid top dollar for this other Rubystone Clubsport that GRP had. They were asking $625k and it was sold in about a week. Don’t know the exact figure, but couldn’t have been super far off their ask. Thought it was crazy a couple years ago and still is. I think for $250k-$300k the Clubsport would be on the rougher side.
https://www.grahamrahalperformance.c...91410?ref=list
Last edited by RapidGT; 01-05-2024 at 07:25 PM.
#2719
Rennlist Member
lol what? $480k is good value for a Ruby 964 RS? That's insane. You can buy a darn good '73 RS for that kind of money (or maybe slightly more depending on color) and as someone who has driven both a decent amount, I would buy the '73 in a heartbeat. I know this is a 964 forum and all, but there are some seriously rose-tinted glasses on these cars right now.
I’ve got no idea what the added button is on the center console. Normally the button there is for the central locking on a normal 964, but it’s blank on an RS basic or NGT Clubsport. Maybe it’s for an aftermarket alarm? Too many questions with this one to justify the price they are asking. Are probably hoping someone will overlook everything just for the color.
Particularly buying cars that have spent time in Japan can be a bit risky if you’re looking for an original low mileage “blue chip” example. Odometer fraud is very common and many cars over there have had extensive paintwork. I’ve heard the insurance companies in Japan allow cars to receive a full repaint due to normal road wear such as rock chips. Not sure if they allow the repaint based on time or the overall condition of the paint. Also some cars are imported with very little documentation and whatever is there is difficult to translate. sometimes when the cars get here very little is known or disclosed about the cars past. Easy to fall for these cars as Japanese examples are the best configurations with intriguing colors and no sunroof’s. Can’t let those things cloud your judgement about how clean of an example the car is.
The stickers and there locations I’ve seen all over the place in many 964’s. US cars are the only ones that seem consistent with one another. RoW cars seem to be different, but not sure if that’s because they’ve been reapplied with correct or incorrect ones in correct or incorrect places.
Particularly buying cars that have spent time in Japan can be a bit risky if you’re looking for an original low mileage “blue chip” example. Odometer fraud is very common and many cars over there have had extensive paintwork. I’ve heard the insurance companies in Japan allow cars to receive a full repaint due to normal road wear such as rock chips. Not sure if they allow the repaint based on time or the overall condition of the paint. Also some cars are imported with very little documentation and whatever is there is difficult to translate. sometimes when the cars get here very little is known or disclosed about the cars past. Easy to fall for these cars as Japanese examples are the best configurations with intriguing colors and no sunroof’s. Can’t let those things cloud your judgement about how clean of an example the car is.
The stickers and there locations I’ve seen all over the place in many 964’s. US cars are the only ones that seem consistent with one another. RoW cars seem to be different, but not sure if that’s because they’ve been reapplied with correct or incorrect ones in correct or incorrect places.
I agree sticker placement is tough and I see cars with some stickers original and other without them and clearly never applied. Especially the knock sensor sticker and gold voltage sticker which varies more than any if they exist. However if the .02 suffix didn't come out until the following year either this is a later build or something doesn't add up. I am hoping the potential buyer will have the smarts to look the car over and have an expert opine on its originality for those dollars.
#2720
A ‘73 RS for $500k or less (if you can even find one) would be a non-numbers matching car with a rough history. A good numbers matching car you are looking at around $700k.
An NGT Clubsport is not a great street car. Not practical, comfortable, or safe. It’s really only at home on a track. Next owner of the car at Zweck will likely not use it on the street or track. Just as garage art to maybe speculate on. The sweet spot for street driving IMO is the basic car even though it is the most produced variant by a longways. A USA Cup car in street trim is also another great choice as it is basically identical to a RoW RS, but I’m a bit biased . The Touring IMO has too many creature comforts (sound deadening, dual-mass flywheel, undercoating, etc.) added back in to where it’s getting a bit away from what an RS should be. Also you were able to add back power steering, radio, A/C, and a sunroof.
Remember someone a couple years ago paid top dollar for this other Rubystone Clubsport that GRP had. They were asking $625k and it was sold in about a week. Don’t know the exact figure, but couldn’t have been super far off their ask. Thought it was crazy a couple years ago and still is. I think for $250k-$300k the Clubsport would be on the rougher side.
An NGT Clubsport is not a great street car. Not practical, comfortable, or safe. It’s really only at home on a track. Next owner of the car at Zweck will likely not use it on the street or track. Just as garage art to maybe speculate on. The sweet spot for street driving IMO is the basic car even though it is the most produced variant by a longways. A USA Cup car in street trim is also another great choice as it is basically identical to a RoW RS, but I’m a bit biased . The Touring IMO has too many creature comforts (sound deadening, dual-mass flywheel, undercoating, etc.) added back in to where it’s getting a bit away from what an RS should be. Also you were able to add back power steering, radio, A/C, and a sunroof.
Remember someone a couple years ago paid top dollar for this other Rubystone Clubsport that GRP had. They were asking $625k and it was sold in about a week. Don’t know the exact figure, but couldn’t have been super far off their ask. Thought it was crazy a couple years ago and still is. I think for $250k-$300k the Clubsport would be on the rougher side.
Then again, I should really learn to stop thinking about these cars as cars, because clearly someone will come along and prove to me with their checkbook that they are indeed an asset class these days.
#2721
Rennlist Member
Fair enough. I was throwing away the crazy "covid" sales of '22 but that's fair. I guess my view was it's low mileage, but it's not insanely low mileage. It's still done 10k miles, it's not like it has delivery miles or sub-1k miles kinda thing. It has probably pretty similar wear and tear to an example that has 20k miles. To me, the collectors I would think either want the delivery miles/sub-1k examples (and will pay even more for them) or the people who intend to drive them want the ones with 20k+ on them. This one is kinda in a no man's land IMO.
Then again, I should really learn to stop thinking about these cars as cars, because clearly someone will come along and prove to me with their checkbook that they are indeed an asset class these days.
Then again, I should really learn to stop thinking about these cars as cars, because clearly someone will come along and prove to me with their checkbook that they are indeed an asset class these days.
Heck someone paid over $14k for an RSA wing no deck lid the other day and you can still get them for Porsche for a fraction of that.
#2722
Rennlist Member
+1 to a lot of these purchases being emotional. Chatting at the local cars and coffee, several folks have sold older cars locally (privately) for well above what everyone would argue is the "market value". Given the scarcity of the 964, when one pops up that strikes an emotional chord, people with the means will pay what they need to in order to get it.
#2723
Rennlist Member
I was speaking with a friend the other day who went over to Germany and had a lengthy conversation with a PAG exec that claimed he could source any classic he wanted but the 964. He claimed everyone wants a 964 and they are impossible to find.
#2724
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Mr. Wolfe
#2725
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964’s went through a long phase of being cheap used cars. Could get a late C2 manual coupe for less than $20k 15 years ago. As a result some owners didn’t take proper care of their cars because they saw it as a cheap almost disposable asset. When the market picked up and everyone wanted one there were very few good ones left in existence. Some would try to sell off their mediocre examples as pristine cars to unsuspecting buyers. Why it is important to do your homework or get help from an expert. A really good 964 is something to hang onto as comparable replacements are hard to come by and with companies like Singer buying up some of the good remaining examples the number of them is dwindling.
#2726
Rennlist Member
964’s went through a long phase of being cheap used cars. Could get a late C2 manual coupe for less than $20k 15 years ago. As a result some owners didn’t take proper care of their cars because they saw it as a cheap almost disposable asset. When the market picked up and everyone wanted one there were very few good ones left in existence. Some would try to sell off their mediocre examples as pristine cars to unsuspecting buyers. Why it is important to do your homework or get help from an expert. A really good 964 is something to hang onto as comparable replacements are hard to come by and with companies like Singer buying up some of the good remaining examples the number of them is dwindling.
Just need a time machine
Last edited by Turbo Jonny; 01-10-2024 at 11:47 AM.
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928 GT R (01-11-2024)
#2727
964’s went through a long phase of being cheap used cars. Could get a late C2 manual coupe for less than $20k 15 years ago. As a result some owners didn’t take proper care of their cars because they saw it as a cheap almost disposable asset. When the market picked up and everyone wanted one there were very few good ones left in existence. Some would try to sell off their mediocre examples as pristine cars to unsuspecting buyers. Why it is important to do your homework or get help from an expert. A really good 964 is something to hang onto as comparable replacements are hard to come by and with companies like Singer buying up some of the good remaining examples the number of them is dwindling.
I agree with the above statement around the 964 being the goldilocks air-cooled car, I think it's why most of us love them. The funny thing I see is that 993s (especially Turbos) still fetch similar or higher prices in many cases. I guess that's because they are the last air-cooled generation, but at least for me, I really don't like the way they drive in comparison. A 993TT loses all of the drama of the 964T with their twin turbo and AWD setups and yet people still adore them and pay huge money for them. To each their own I suppose...
#2728
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I agree with the above statement around the 964 being the goldilocks air-cooled car, I think it's why most of us love them. The funny thing I see is that 993s (especially Turbos) still fetch similar or higher prices in many cases. I guess that's because they are the last air-cooled generation, but at least for me, I really don't like the way they drive in comparison. A 993TT loses all of the drama of the 964T with their twin turbo and AWD setups and yet people still adore them and pay huge money for them. To each their own I suppose...
Last edited by RapidGT; 01-11-2024 at 08:47 AM.
#2729
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Does anybody know anything about this place At Speed Motors? Have seen the stuff the owner Bob Miller has done with PCA. Bob left his card on my 964 Cup when it was a Rennsport and have wondered exactly what they do. They post some very interesting cars on their social media especially 964’s. Never see anything listed on their site for sale and the cars that are featured on their social media always seem to be spoken for or not for sale. Do they do sales, importation, or service? Noticed they get a fair amount from Thomas Josef Schmitz in Germany.
#2730
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It seems like an eternity ago. I wish I could pick up anyone of those for double those prices today. I was buying 964 with some needs for $10k back in 2015. I wish I bought more. They were worth more in parts than as a whole, and parts weren't big money. I sold an early engine needing a rebuild with 84k mile & 4 broken head studs for $3500. . Looking back I let so many parts go that today are worth more than an entire 964 back then.