bweSteve

collector / investors ... -vs- drivers ^^^

RapidGT

The sunroof delete disirability comes down to weight (center of gravity) but mostly from rarity. 964’s are more desirable without sunroofs however if you go back to the early 911’s they are more desirable with them because they are rarer. Disregarding rarity I generally prefer 911’s without sunroofs. The RS America is one of the few ways among US spec 964’s to get a sunroof delete as they were not standard equipment unlike pretty much every other 964 brought here. There was a sunroof delete option for other models but hardly anyone selected it.

cobalt

My friend was recipient of the first official 911 in the US. It was a sunroof car which only makes it more desirable. AFAIK the car still only has 19k original miles on it and a nice article is being done about it coming soon. Sadly he sold it for a sunroof delete RSA which is now In Saudi Arabia.

The sunroof in these cars are useless. All it does is make noise and I sit high in the car so I need the headroom. SInce the US Coupes all came with sunroofs but possibly 4 units the sunroof delete is what makes these most desireable and LSD of course. Removing the weight of the sunroof from my C2 is clearly apparent especially up high like that. I do not like the manual rack on these cars. It doesn't add much feedback and the power assist is force fed so as you roll it does very little yet saves my old shoulders.

I like the looks of the RSA as I am a wing man and have an RSA wing on my C2 but a C2 modified properly is all anyone needs to spend up for. An RS is another story.

Now talking about cars for sale But buyer beware. Not much honesty going on here. Full repaint and non original wheels with full claims of originality.

​​​​​​https://redirect.viglink.com/?format...rbo-3-6-row%2F

s65e90

Sunroofs are like skylights. They seem nice, but they're not great and no real person with knowledge wants a hole in the roof. That said, Porsche guys are something else, obsessing over the minutia of everything while their cars just sit as they speculate. From PTS, to paint meters, to everything, it's crazy. Give me chips, scratches, well used cars I can enjoy. Life is short.

das76

Fun fact:

the sunroof on my 1991 Turbo with 103,000kms works perfectly

the sunroof on my 2016 Volvo XC90 with 103,000kms does not work

haha

cobalt

From garage queen to driver it is all good and these can be enjoyed in many ways. I do have an issue when a car is sold as one thing but is another. So don't throw a layer of paint on a dinged up driver and call it an all original paint car to pump up the price. I have a friends 993 in my garage that was so far from an honest sale and most any I see are the same these days. So yes it is crazy about original paint but if it isn't it shouldn't be sold for the price of one. I have drivers, track cars and show cars they are all fun in their own way.

rjf

I always thought Symbolic was one of the better sellers. That was my impression, anyway.

cobalt

He puts on a great show and other cheer him on. He does source the unique cars so they have a value but he is probably one of the biggest con men I have met in a long time. Some of his cars are decent, none of them are bad. However, not one I have seen he has sold has been remotely truthful. There is 0 transparency and he will tell tall tales about things that don't exist because the sad part is he knows better and knows how to twist the truth. He has a world full of unsuspecting buyers he has taken and half don't know and some don't care. I have seen people drop $400k with him on a $200k car and be OK with it. I wish I had an extra $200k to throw away.

It is like some of the Alien movies where the people walking around look human until you see their true colors and once that happens you can't unsee it. He is one of the few if anyone asks me about a car he is selling I say RUN!!!!!!! After looking over some of his all original paint cars I just can't figure out how he can sleep at night. I guess it is on the pile of money he has made off other people's dreams.

There are threads about him in just about every forum. Pelican has a nice thread going on about the French turbo S which is another car he is making stuff up about as he goes. Nice unique example but he is just BS'ing his way along and people are drooling over it.

To be honest I blame BaT for a lot of it. I honestly think we should all Boycott BaT and see how well their auctions do without all the fanfare.

RapidGT

Symbolic has this other Japanese market black RoW RS on their website. Haven’t really looked at it yet. Assume this will be chucked up on BaT after the silver one they have up currently ends.

https://inventory.symbolicinternatio...che-carrera-rs

bweSteve

I'm going to play devils advocate here,... so take it all with a grain of salt, since you & I are friends Anthony,... but honestly, for those buyers who "don't care", and simply MUST have some particular car, and are willing to separate with wads of money to get it,... isn't that the free market? ... Why would we blame BaT? ... is there really any "need" for blame in the first place?

I understand that your beef is when sellers are lying and/or deceiving unsuspecting buyers,... but don't we always say "a fool & his money are soon separated"? ...

You certainly have spent the better part of a decade now helping your friends to NOT be a fool separated with his/her money,... so I certainly understand that your heart goes out to folks who do not currently own one, and would love to buy one. But seriously MOST of the people who want to buy one these days are investors & collectors (very seldom are they true driver enthusiasts). I guess what I'm asking is why any collectors out there (& I'm assuming you are one, cuz you care so much about values,... even tho I know you are ALSO a driver too with the 3.8RS-Tribute track car & other DD's),... but why we would care about those fools (again these are people we do not know who are being doop'd),... especially when they are helping to boost the price market of these 964 Turbo's up so high. That certainly helps those like yourself who already own a premium example. I get that everyone loves to root for the under dogs, which are those folks who do NOT currently own one, and want to buy one,... but those folks need to do their own self reflecting on whether they spend their own hard earned money. I have no love lost on people who do not do their own diligence. Yes it is getting harder & harder to PERFORM that diligence,... but if you really dig deep enough, and talk to the right folks, and SEE the car for yourself,... then the right car can be bought for the right reasons. Everyone can do their own JUSTIFICATION in their own minds on what they are willing to DO, and/or spend, in order to get the car they want, for their own reasons (even if that reason is simply to make money off of it down the road).

Anyway,.... just thought I would attempt to calm this conversation down a little bit. So much complaining about how so many sellers are corrupt, and so many people are being dumb with their money,.. and how so many of the cars for sale these days are all hiding skeletons in their closet, or are pieces of crap,.... is getting tiring. Sure, much of those conversations can & should happen in private,... but I'm just hoping this RL forum can be a happy place.

Respectfully,
Steve

cobalt

Steve,

I honestly don't see the need to quel this. I am sorry you are tired but I am not the one perpetrating this. What better place to speak out and educate those who don't know and are unsuspecting. Many have learned from you, myself and others. As i see it the market is equally as important to these cars as the mechanics. Rising prices influence not only the cars value but parts and interest. Where else can one come and learn?

I have amassed a wealth of knowledge and I galdy share it for free. No bias no fee just an enthusiast trying to help others with the facts. I take pleasure in helping others and sharing my knowledge so that is my selfishness. If I turn a blind eye to it to just make things happy, I am fooling not only myself but letting others down as well. I have no issue with someone parting a fool from their money but these aren't fools being taken they just don't know what the truth is and how can they when buying their first air-cooled? The 993 I am currently working on will fool nearly 60% of the buyers some long time 911 owners I know. When I am done fixing the obvious issues it will fool even more. If I don't say anything they would probably never know until they go to sell the car. However the car is far from what it was sold as and if the buyer looked at in person wouldn't have a clue to what is so obvious to someone in the know. It would be no different if I sold my C2 as original paint when it meters as new and is cleaner the 99% of the cars i look at. If these cars were remotely that nice I would say enjoy but they are POS with lots of lipstick being sold as original when they aren't.

I know you are non confrontational. A super nice person with a huge heart, but I am not you. If we sat down and went over just a small portion of the very well crafted emails sent by some of these sellers to unsuspecting buyers I think you would understand better my need to bring some form of transparency to the market. In many cases I had to sift through numerous factory documents to prove the car being sold wasn't what the seller claimed. How is a novice supposed to know what I have a hard time uncovering? The car looked correct even to my eye but the seller knew without a shadow of a doubt that he was selling was a fake. The difference, you might ask is around $400k and that is IMO criminal. If he didn't know it would be one thing but he just kept making up false facts to cover his behind and the buyer just got fed up and sadly would not prosecute. He has the money to loose but why should we turn a blind eye to it and allow it to continue. What good does it do anyone to see more and more people buy their childhood dream car only to find they not only got taken but can't afford the fix?

I lived through this once before in the 80's. I made claims here that these issues were coming back in 2011 when we started seeing interest in these cars grow. Everyone snarled and said you can't equate one market to another which is BS. It destroyed the market and the hobby for many for nearly a decade and I can't watch as others falsely sell a car as one thing when it isn't to get rich at innocent people's behalf. These aren't fools but unsuspecting and see only the shinny top side when what really matters lies beneath. I would be happy to calm this down if you have a solution to helping not only the unsuspecting buyer but the hobby which will suffer in the long run.

Always good to have a voice of reason but in this case I can't step down I have seen too many get swindled by the same people.

Scott Dunavant

Steve, BAT is currently misrepresenting a 1985 911 Turbo slant nose Cab as a conversion. Well is it a Cab or a 930 cut into a Cab.
On other listings...
There is also no structure damage listed. NO statements of Federal buyers guide AS-IS forms. Manheim Auto auctions requires this to be listed on each auction or arbitration.

993Buyer

Jubilee just sold for $216K on BAT:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...era-4-coupe-4/
A good price for the most beautiful 911 Porsche ever made.

Bad Boys 1

I'm a little confused about this obsession of original cars.

These cars were just cars 20 plus years ago and were driven.
Like anything else , they will need repairs and replacement ..etc
now that they have increased value everyone wants to claim to have the best and all original.
And what's this obsession with original paint? The best cars at Pebble Beach and Amelia were likely restored and are some of the most valuable and expensive on the planet.
I don't see anyone walking around with paint meters.

I wouldn't hesitate to purchase a car repaired properly and repainted .

Hell....I did a glass out respray on my car.

Mike

darylbowden

It all goes back to "they're only original once" and it's really hard for a car to survive for 30+ years without needing body/paint/interior work. Talented people can take a shell of a car and turn it Into a perfect car and that's amazing but for some folks, they really like a car that shows all its history and just presents as an honest survivor. Different strokes for different folks but money can solve one of those (create one as good as new) while only time, good care and luck can create the other (a survivor).