RapidGT

Deleted

2swoosh

Agreed esp numbered cars are guaranteed to appreciate

cobalt

I would consider a full PPI. The numbers just don't add up. No way you can have 3 mils on one panel and 13.5 on another and it be original paint. There have been a few RS's with sub 10k miles and full resprays sell for far too much. Seems that a lot of Rubystone RS's are hitting the market as well.

I found out that a couple of the lesser C2's that sold on BaT for roughly $95k are heading off to become Singer turbo studies.

RapidGT

I also find it hard to believe that 13.5 mils is factory original paint. You could make the case for possibly 7 or 8 mils being factory paint by counting in human error as these cars were painted by hand at the time. This could be from inconsistent application or addressed flaws while at the factory. But anything over 10 mils is definitely too think for original paint. So in my view at least the hood has been repainted. Otherwise still looks like an awesome car.

cobalt

I agree it is an awesome car but when looking at these I want every stone turned if you are investing in rarity and originality. I have never seen a single car with factory paint over 10mils and only in a small area. Otherwise they were all resprays. 13 usually means filler to cover rock chips, primer and paint. When I stripped down the quarter panel of my C2 it read 11 and it had 3 coats of paint over the original. Does impact the cars function. Absolutely not but when spending these dollars I want to know exactly what I would be buying. I am not as particular as some but I know many who will not touch car if it has had any paintwork.

Interestingly I have done a number of remote PPI's on RoW cars these past couple of years. We have a few mechanics who do the work and write up a report and then I review what they send us. They aren't as forgiving as we are here. Tape lines or not even if it is factory if they see more than 8 mils, they don't squabble they say it has had paintwork period and will not entertain anything else.

Paolo1

Do these paint thicknesses apply also to the 993?

jeff33702

Another way to look at it is that the market isn’t putting as much of a premium on original paint as many believe they should.

cobalt

I haven't metered as many 993's as 964's. The 993's started the beginning of their new paint facility using all waterborne vs solvent based paints and all cars base clear vs solid colors being single stage. I am not 100% sure but was told that they also introduced some robotic painting by then. I believe it might have been for the primer only but don't know. Most factory paint I know that hasn't been touched by a buffer 964 or 993 usually meter relatively consistently. The 964's do occasionally have variations but it isn't all cars and it is usually small areas on a single panel not the large swings like we are seeing on many of these cars which I can assure you, have some paintwork. Don't forget that cars did get paintwork done at the ports and sometimes by the dealership prior to being sold. This is common throughout the automotive industry. I have metered a 928 that meter a consistent 9-10 on all panels. As far as I could tell it was factory original paint but I believe the car had issues at the factory and had the clear redone, maybe more than once. If I see 3 mils I know the car had been buffed. Anything over 8 is suspect and should be investigated further.

I agree that depending on the car and its mileage original paint isn't as much of an issue as it was before. Heck finding any 30 year old car without some paintwork isn't easy these days. However a car with sub 10k miles or exclusively rare being sold as a true collectable and as all original shouldn't have any paintwork and the collector wants a car as close as it was when it left the factory. What I find an issue with is many of these sellers know that the car had paintwork and are trying to pass them off as original to get max dollars. If it is an honest car with a little paintwork and it brings a few grand less, than IMO that is how it should be marketed. Anything less is just dishonest practices and if they are willing to stretch the truth about the paint what else are they willing to keep secret. Believe you me some of the things I have seen will make your stomach turn.

I have helped many sell their cars over the years and one thing I always tell them is be honest and show everything they can. In the end the seller usually got more than they expected because of the honest nature of the sale. Any of my Porsche's I have sold over the years I insisted the buyer have an independent shop look the car over. These 7 day auctions leave just enough time but far to many are cagy about it claiming no time for a PPI or they are out of town.

If you were buying a PIcasso would you be happy to find out after you paid up for it that someone touched it up to cover up some prior damage and didn't disclose it?

jeff33702

100%. Full disclosure and an apparent honest seller with an honest car will usually bring more money than a car with questions going unanswered or a seller who puts up some reg flags.
Also for sure - if a seller is found to not be honest about even 1 simple thing, there is a shadow of doubt put over the entire car because, as you said, what else is being hidden?

This all speaks to how things "should" be, with real car enthusiasts and honest car people. Unfortunately, greed is a huge component, especially these days.

cobalt

Sadly although many will argue that the economy killed the 80's grey market I found it was this type of behavior from sellers and flippers that did the most damage. I said when the market started to climb back in roughly 2011 that this has all the earmarks of the 80's grey market and it is apparent to me that it has done the same thing. Especially now that the economy is turning the need to extract every penny is becoming more apparent. The margins are getting tighter and the flippers more desperate. Those that purchased poorly thinking to cash in one day now will run scared and try to get out. The market is now being flooded with those that waited too long. A perfect storm that everyone is creating and nobody is willing to acknowledge. I say hold on and ride it out these will always be valuable and someday we will see this market take off again.

jeff33702

Yes, people hate losing money and some people bought these cars with the expectation that the market would not back off. I'm not going to speak to what degree the market has cooled or not (lots of opinions on that) but I think the point you make is that right now, could be the riskiest time to be shopping specialty cars - and not because of the price, but due to the higher likelihood that some sellers are saying anything and covering up anything they can in order to not lose any money on their "investment". Thorough vetting of the car and honesty of the seller is more important than ever.

RapidGT

This Red RS America sold for $142,800 including the 12% buyers premium.

https://www.broadarrowauctions.com/v...911-rs-america

RapidGT

Guards red RS Touring with 21k miles.

https://canepa.com/photo-gallery/199...-touring-6823/

RapidGT

Sold for $470k.

Indiana Jones

The Rubystone RS brought some money...