darylbowden

Also I'll point out that there are plenty of survivors with far more miles on them than the perfect restored cars. So it's not about just watching them sit around, it's about appreciating them every day as they came from the factory.

das76

I think people ask for paint meter readings to see if there was any hidden / unclaimed accident damage. sure it's not fool proof, but it reduces the risk. Many people get small accidents / fender benders fixed "off the books" or not claimed through insurance.

At least that is the only reason I can think of. Paint is a wear item, just like rubber hoses, bushings, suspension, tires, brakes. So who cares if it's original if it's been done correctly.

No one would buy a house from you if you had all original paint, roof etc on an old house. So why is a car any different? The mind boggles.

As long as the car is sound I'd prefer a car with new paint vs original if the car has been driven a lot. Turns out i was at least lucky in that dept

cobalt

Mike,
Those are the critical words.

I can't count how many I have helped buy and sell these cars over the years. I can say that no 2 people have the same set of priorities and in many cases I can't help someone with unrealistic expectations. I have a half dozen people looking for 3.6T's all want PTS. GL I spent a long time 20 years ago help someone who now sold his 3.6T find an original paint car but didn't care about the mechanicals. It took time but I found one and he rebuilt the engine then tracked it to the point it need a full respray. Go figure? Some want all original, some modified drivers, some project cars. I don't judge what people want but I can help them to get it when it is so very hard with the quality of product on the market. It was once a fun hobby now it is a business. Quite sad that these people can make so much off peoples dreams and deliver nothing but heartache.

Everyone wants something different. Some want originality, but those buyers want low mileage survivors for their Museum grade collection. Many by me have literally gone the way of declaring their 35+ car collection as a museum for tax purposes. Others want that Parade Preservation trophy and need at least 75% original paint. But I believe @das76 hits the nail on the head. It is what is hidden you have to be concerned over. When a car is sold as original paint and I meter it and find a low of 12 and high of 35mils I would be quite upset if I bought that car. I also have found nobody by me will do PPI's anymore since there is too much game playing and even the pros don't uncover things and get sued. Mechanics will not do paint readings or comment on paints originality as it has its own set of issues. Sadly I have come to learn first hand I know more than most any gold star Porsche certified tech that has been doing this for less the 30 years. I have no doubt this 993 will be in need of a full restoration one day and will never sell for what the buyer paid for it. I can already see paint peeling up around the edges which will only get worse over time. I can assure you the seller lied through his teeth about the paint and knew exactly what he was selling. I can't tell you how many people are driving around in cars they paid a premium for that have had full repaint and there are dozens of cars I know had the entire front clips repalced. The work was top notch but I know because I helped fix them.

It is stuff like this! Yet another BaT sale and the seller claimed he could not meter the paint because it was wrapped in a thick film to color change it. It wasn't an issue until someone backed into him and we found this.




Here is more.


The cost to repair exceeded the buy in. Sadly when I first saw the car I thought it looked great.

It is all about facts and transparency and when a seller has all the facts posted on his website and yet chooses to distort them to suit his needs and sells cars with extensive paintwork as original with the intent to deceive I see that as an issue. More so when it is promoted and clearly accepted by the auctioning house. I can say the cars I have seen Mr Noon sell probably yielded him a >Million over what they were worth and that is just those I have seen.

How does it go?
How do you know when a liar is lying? His mouth is open. In this case just read his words and review the facts they don't align and if anyone knows as much about these cars as I do it is him and a few others.

das76

@cobalt thanks!

do you have a link to that auction with the damage above. I’ll crack a beer and read that!

bill has 2 more coming up just fyi

1992 Porsche 964 RS Black
1994 Porsche 964 Turbo 3.6 (Blue)

cobalt

Sorry that was back in 2020 IIRC.
Good for him. For those interested please don't buy without having it fully inspected.

Bad Boys 1

I agree with most of what you said .

I said properly repaired or painted. Lets face it when the values went up so much, it will certainly bring out the crooks.
Your knowledge is well known and valued by many.

The used car business has the reputation it does because it earned it. Not unlike many contractors.
Just takes a few to ruin it for many.

The car just sold at Barrett wasn't hiding anything and probably is the reason for price. However I think they did a pretty decent job of minor
repairs and cleaning. Not concours , but to my point...a nice 66k mile driver.
They are not all concours nor are they all original and that's were the buyer must do there diligence.

jeff33702

I've been there before, but that was a much less desirable brand/model at the time vs these cars today. It's not a mystery formula. As time goes on, fewer and fewer collector/concours examples remain for any model. At some point, prices peak for the exceptional (rare, condition...) This filters out many buyers who will not or cannot pay the prices that these cars have appreciated to. That creates an ever-growing pool of buyers who simply are not in the market for the very top tier of the product for various reasons..concerns that they could not drive without hurting value, not in budget..whatever. This tier-2 pool of buyers becomes huge and competition for remaining quality (which is always subjective) items ultimately drives the prices up here, too. A rising tide truly does lift all boats.

cobalt

Mike,

Everyone's boat floats a little differently and some of these cars will make great drivers for those that just want to drive but are being sold and purchased as Collector quality based on the misleading comments by the sellers and their gang of loyal followers. My issue is BaT is promoting the sale of fresh picked Macintosh apples when their sellers are pushing Gerber apple sauce as the same thing. The forum when initially created was intended to promote transparency. Unfortunately that hasn't been the case in quite some time. These cars can range in value from $200k to $600k but these guys are trying to sell $250k cars for $500k and they will say and play whatever game they need to to get the money. A level playing field is needed and that isn't going to happen when these institutions promote the dishonest behavior by banning and censoring legitimate questions because the seller isn't happy about it. Simple honest transparent sales practices are needed. But greed for the almighty dollar is rampant here. Trust me I know that is asking a lot. But if we turn a blind eye eventually this will be the new norm and the hobby will be devastated as it was once before.

No doubt you would have been slammed if you sold the BB car as original paint but that car is in a world of its own. Although if it were some of these sellers, there isn't a shadow of a doubt that they would have claimed the paint to be all original.

Glad to see you taking an interest in the topic you have been missed here.

I moved the conversation to another thread if you care to participate. I am trying to keep things civilized but hope to save some people from making the same mistakes I have seen others fall for.

For now let's continue posting what we find for sale to get this thread back on topic but I hope people realize what is going on and what to watch out for in the future. It will only get worse if we allow it. I know of a number of cars being cobbled back together I suspect will be posted here eventually and won't be remotely what they are being sold as.

Bad Boys 1

Hey Tony,

I don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying.
I guess I don't understand why BAT has any responsibility to the condition of anything being listed.
If the seller is trying to push something that has a history ,or issues, is it BAT's responsibility to police the quality of cars listed?
It's just a place to sell cars , like any other media such as auto trader, Facebook or even the local paper.

The burden falls on the buyer to inspect and evaluate.

I read a lot of the comments on BAT , some informative....some knuckleheads.

cobalt

When BaT continues to allow the deletion or censors relevant questions by enthusiasts that know what they are asking because the seller doesn't like being questioned about his blatantly fraudulent comments that can easily be proven and ignore complaints from buyers who have been taken I think that is where the line is drawn. The system worked when questions were allowed to be asked and answered. Now the questions are deleted or censored by BaT so the seller can make his money. I presented a very relevant series of questions regarding some blatantly false comments in a very honest and simple way and BaT reviewed the comment and never posted them several times. So the sale went through without the facts being disclosed and the sellers lies were accepted by the buyer as truth and when the car arrived the lies became apparent. It just happened a friend called and asked me to help them with all the issues with the car. Sadly what I found was far worse than even I imagined. There is no way the seller was unaware.

BaT used to be a place to buy cars. Now it is the place to unload cars that would easily fail most PPI's.

RapidGT

You should copy the comments (like from the one you posted on that red 3.6 with Symbolic) that get censored here and attach the VIN to it so people can find it by simply Googling the VIN.

cobalt

Agreed. I am just surprised it has gone this far but lesson learned and I will do so from now on.

das76

and then people here can reference those posts. Until they are banned too. But there are infinite emails out there so you can have infinite accounts on bat.

cobalt

I don't like to play that game. I will just avoid BaT for now. I have more important things to do like actually working on these cars.

das76

Yup! The ratio of working on to driving is already pretty high so more time driving is my preference