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The second doc @RapidGT posted appears to be the ROW cup parts list - I have the same doc for my car.
FWIW, the setup in the first doc is much less aggressive than what we ran on the cars during the heyday of GTC1: everyone was in the -3.2 to -3.7 range for camber. This was the same on various slicks from Yoks to Dunlops to Pirellis.
Went through my cars documents and found a parts list with the set up for the Andial converted race cars. Also I think the other document is a parts list for the ROW Cup/Supercup series? I didn’t see these documents on the registry so not sure if anyone has seen them before, but you guys most likely have. BTW Joe Annicelli is not one of the previous owners of my car, so I don’t know where these documents came from.
Thanks for sharing those. Very interesting read. I found it strange that they would set ride height off the jack points. That makes little sense to me as what are the tolerances of a piece of the tub like that and what happens when they bottom out on a turtle and damage one? I would think the standard method would make sense. I do love looking at the prices. It was money back then but makes me chuckle when I think if these were only todays prices.
My car also came from Dan Jacobs and had similar Cup suspension and full monoballs. I absolutely loved how the car handled and the feedback it gave, on track and back roads. My car also has a LWF and the engine puts out much more power than a stock one, even though I was told it was rebuilt stock.
When I stopped tracking the car, the suspension got to be too much (I thought) for the worsening roads around here, so I swapped it for MCS coilovers, going from 600/800 springs to 350/550. While the MCS handles the rough roads better, they also removed a good bit of the feel and handling I was getting which I find disappointing. I kept the Cup suspension and I’ve been debating going back to it, and putting the car back on the Cup-lite/RS tribute path.
What color was the dampers on yours/ the Andial cars? Most of the Cup ones I see are green, but mine are yellow and it’s made me wonder what mine actually is.
We have these documents on file, but have yet to list them on our website. I'll ask my co-chairs if they'd like me to upload our files (or yours with permission) onto the site. Thanks for sharing!!!!
Originally Posted by RapidGT
Went through my cars documents and found a parts list with the set up for the Andial converted race cars. Also I think the other document is a parts list for the ROW Cup/Supercup series? I didn’t see these documents on the registry so not sure if anyone has seen them before, but you guys most likely have. BTW Joe Annicelli is not one of the previous owners of my car, so I don’t know where these documents came from.
Lots of good reads here and appreciate all the feedback. Had this car for a little over 3 years and 3k + miles of mixed driving (mostly street & 1 hpde) if not for my shoulder injury (CVA) which affected my reflexes she'll be a keeper forever. I still do drive her leisurely though but that's about it. Me and Anthony (Cobalt) will test the market in the next few weeks and thinking of PCARMARKET, Cars & Bids by Doug Demuro, or other auction sites (RL and FB too) rather than BAT as our Litmus test. The Cup is not a museum piece as PO installed the Moton CS and dual exhaust and i added the AG battery and Numeric short shifter with Golden Rod. She was maintained by Princeton Porsche of NJ when i first got her ( i tossed the aftermarket cage and tight Recaro race seats) and Anthony did the rest to make it more enjoyable to street drive, a true RVDE! . From what i can gathered the previous owner was a physician and collected vintage Porches and occasionally raced his collection until the bitter divorce the ex wife told me that they drove the Cup cross country from Jersey to Cali for an event and Patrick Long and Jurgen Burgmeister signed their names under the bonnet. I loved driving fast so i bought a Tesla Plaid and drag race but sold her after 11 months of ownership she was ungodly fast (9.3 @ 150) but numb plus the range anxiety. I'm on a hunt for a PDK only C4S cab, Targa 4s, or Turbo S Cab so if you have one PM me for a cash deal.
Last edited by 2swoosh; 10-23-2022 at 11:19 AM.
Reason: typo
This is where the confusion begins. My understanding based on Neil Harvey's comments was that ANDIAL did some modifications to the 29 cars they received prior to sealing the engines. The dyno tests I have seen from RoW RS's show less HP than what he posted in this thread. Closer to the 260hp vs 270+ The impression I got was they were more powerful and especially much more torque than the RS. Those I know who owned these said they were more powerful as well. So which is it? Event the factory spec book shows only 260hp vs the 270+ that Neil posted. So I guess we need to clarify this. My observation was driving the cup car was that it had more torque than the RS I drove.
The 260 HP number is for a fully muffled street engine with a silenced air cleaner, the 270+ numbers are for an engine with an open exhaust and opened air cleaner. The Andial cars were prepared at minimum cost and the goal was to have identical cars so I see no reason that Andial would do more than the exhaust and air cleaner stuff. I recall there was some consideration of changing the valve springs for over rev protection since that apparently was an issue with the Euro Cups and they had a running change to a different spring. I don't know if this ever occurred and if it did if the springs were removed when the race prepped cars went back to street specification. FWIW my car with engine #342 dynoed in the brake dyno record at 272.5 HP and 252 HP with the air cleaner mod and only the side muffler on an Dynojet chassis dyno, only an 8% driveline loss.
As far as the magnesium engine mounts you are saying that Matt's (your old car) had the magnesium with rubber bushing mounts removed and replaced with the solid magnesium mounts. I have had both in my C2 and didn't notice much of a difference in sound but my car has undercoating. So the mag W/ rubber bushing mount should be stock?
As I said above, the Andial prepared cars were done on the "cheap" compared to a factory Euro Cup car which had solid magnesium engine mounts while Andial kept the stock rubber RS mounts that came on the cars. I installed the Euro Cup's magnesium mounts on my/Matt's car (along with the RSR trans mount) and the increase in noise was not objectionable to me.
I will note that I wasn't comparing these to the Touring as I know they have undercoating and amenities the cups don't have but I was trying to show that the Cup falls in between the Touring and Basic. At least the port cars and possibly the 4 parts cars. The modified race cars i would consider closer to the NGT I had a ride in one on track years ago and it was very much a race car vs 2swoosh's car which is not quite as raw. Even my C2 modified by Dan Jacobs is more raw than his "parts" car. Apparently Dan did some work on these to emulate the cup cars. I recently learned the shocks and springs in the car are the same as those used in the cup series by ANDIAL. The Cup was supplied in DOT form so it had the airbags, power windows and other things that we might see on a touring. That was my reason for placing it between the two. Lets just say it is closer to the basic with some Touring features.
I think a good analysis calling the USA Cup between N/GT and Touring. I have weighed the airbag kit, power windows, USA bumpers, USA rear glass, stock seats, alarm, luggage dump, large 11 liter water bottle, etc. and the total comes to around 100+ pounds of stuff not on an N/GT
The USA Cup cars came with the street RS springs, struts and shocks and these were replaced by Andial to the same suspension used in the Euro Cups then changed back to street RS
. The difference in spring rate is huge with the street springs at around 250/400 F/R lbs./in. while the race parts 3 to 4 times that. The Cup front strut is a an "upside down" monotube design while the RS used a twin tube Bilstein.
In order to save money, the Andial prepped race cars didn't have the Euro Cup's adjustable rear drop links installed and used the stock RS street parts instead. These parts would have cost approximately $500 per car. Couple this with the cost of the magnesium engine mounts at around $450 per car, Andial apparently didn't think the advantages of these parts was worth around $1000 per car at the time.
Bob-
your level of documentation and organization is always astounding. Partially because when many of your photos were taken, digital cataloging had to be in its infancy If you didn't take the career path you did, I'm sure you would have made a great librarian.
If anyone reading is looking for a well documented port car, I know of one quietly for sale. drop me a DM.
Matt
For those who don’t have a control list with engine numbers. I assume most of you guys have one of these, but if anyone doesn’t have one it makes it easier to decipher the dyno sheet from Porsche AG that Neil uploaded. VIN #392 is not on the dyno sheet and the last three digits of the engine number for VIN #601 is hard to read but it is #356.
We have these documents on file, but have yet to list them on our website. I'll ask my co-chairs if they'd like me to upload our files (or yours with permission) onto the site. Thanks for sharing!!!!
You can use my documents if you want. I have no issues with it.
My car also has a LWF and the engine puts out much more power than a stock one, even though I was told it was rebuilt stock.
The stock rebuilds today are quite different than as delivered from Porsche. Almost everyone will include titanium retainers and better valve springs. Also CCing and shaving the heads to set the compression to the factory spec - factory 964s are almost always lower than the published compression ratio. Doing all this and you get something around 285hp with the open cup exhaust and cup air filter mod. In the PCA Club racing community this is affectionately known as the “Connecticut Stock” - perfect legal but definitely not what you got from the factory.
This is good info and it is nice to get some clarification on these items. Neil made it sound as though they had messed with the timing and other things but never followed through with that info. I never saw significant enough gains dynoing a stock engine with just changing to cup pipe and air intake but will take your word on it. Usually I saw minor shift in the curve but no actual HP gain. With some products we actually saw a loss of power. The DJ build I have has the shaved heads. Dan admitted that to me. I guess that will be seen when I pull that engine apart this winter. Although when I physically measured some 964 engines they appeared to be at 10.3:1 which is factory for a 964. I suspect the engine is closer to 11.5:1 which was correct for the 993. The car only dynoed at 275 on a mustang dyno with 40 more ft pounds of torque. Coupled with the short ratio box and race suspension are a blast to drive full out.
The race suspension pictured looks like the suspension in my car although one of the rear shocks was replaced with a fully threaded unit and the top hats have been repalced with a 993 style RS adjustable hat.
The solid engine mount pictured looks like an aluminum version sold by Kelly Moss. I am assuming this is what is in Matt's car. I have a pair I purchased from KM when I visited them back in 1996. They were CNCing them and had a bunch going out for anodizing while I was there. They had a yellow 3.8RS they were converting to full race spec and suggested them to me for my 3.0RS clone I had at the time. I found they transmitted too much noise so I removed them. As I recall they were $500 back then, which was huge. The ones you pictured are identical to the KM I have and are aluminum weighing about 33% more than the magnesium versions I have. The aluminum I found do transmit far more noise and vibration than the mag units which makes sense. I was under the impression that Matt's car was stock so I expected them to have the hard rubber with magnesium housing units. These are things we can all do and some are beneficial and others not so much.
Number 590 still has its magnesium mounts with rubber bushings and in all honesty I agree the gains are minimal to change from them to the solid mag units.
RS rubber centered mounts I use on my street C2. mag housings with hard rubber bushing.
Kelly Moss Aluminum solid engine mount black vs factory magnesium unit. I have the mag units on both my track cars. Thes mag units are identical to the mounts I found on the factory equipped, never raced, 993 RSR 3.8 I worked on. Unfortunately I don't have a pic of them in the car to show. The aluminum is anodized and magnesium won't take anodizing like this. Usually when anodizing magnesium it ends up with white spots so you won't see it done.
It is interesting how all upgrade parts we think are tarrett or other designs are actually just copies of factory parts some with some minor modifications.
We need more info like this as these cars need to be documented. IMO this is the car Porsche should have imported instead of the RSA. Truly special cars that deserve their place in the spotlight.
The BIG problem is the basic street 964 RS, M002 Touring and M003 Clubsport were never imported to the USA, let alone a true factory built racing M001 Cup Car, thus few people on this side of the Atlantic have the knowledge base to compare them to each other or to say an RS America...or Andial Cup car.
10-22-2022, 08:36 AM
Very interesting read. I found it strange that they would set ride height off the jack points. That makes little sense to me as what are the tolerances of a piece of the tub like that and what happens when they bottom out on a turtle and damage one? I would think the standard method would make sense. I do love looking at the prices. It was money back then but makes me chuckle when I think if these were only todays prices.
