Skip Wolfe

Can you define "basic form" and "very little attempt?" Are we talking rebuilt bottom end with stock parts and bolt ons? Stock displacement? Sleeved bottom ends with aftermarket psitons, robs and worked cranks? Dry sump? I just want a frame of refenece, because while lots of guys have built 450+ hp motors for a dyno run, I do not know many of them that would stand up to racing and I am just trying to calibrate the adjectives. I would venture a guess that most of the GT3S mid pack and lower guys are running <= 400 rwhp.

Landjet

All I can say is try to find a way to get in touch with Joe Anselmo or the current owner of the car that he built. Unfortunately, I just have the pictures of his car and I have lost his phone number. If I still had his phone number, I would have given him a call to help out . . .

I am sorry to hear that you don't believe a 944 turbo race car built for light weight can get down to 2,100 pounds.

Jeff

Ok Jeff first of all I hope you are not taking anything I write personal, I was up late last night after getting home from watching the KU, Mizzu game, read some of this stuff and had to chuckle and crank on the keyboard. It is all light hearted and you may see why in a moment.
There is some info I hate to give out but what the hell.
Joe Anselmo's phone number is cell #949-683-4???, home 949-699-3??? work 866-472-4???.
Know why I know it's not a #2100lb car? It's pretty close but no cigar.
The first person that can put this puzzle together gets an AT A BOY!!!!

David Floyd

You own the car ?

Under Pressure Performance

I only have a couple of minutes to respond, so i will make it quick and follow up on the points later...

First of all, I feel Jeff is taking offense to points that were not meant to be directed to him. Jeff, when I said "if you want to believe..." I didn't necessarily mean you in particular, I meant "you" as in "you all" "they" - Something to that affect. Sorry if my post seemed to single you out, and it is an understandable assumption as there are really only a couple of you making opposing arguments.

That said, let's move on...

You have taken a couple of quotes of mine and used them out of context, and quite honestly, that has always been a pet peeve of mine. I have NEVER said that is was not possible to make 600 RWHP from a 2.5L, why would I say that when I know what I have already built in the past? In complete context (not a snippet used to play on words) What I DID say was that it is not remotely close to EASY to do so, AND that as a race engine it would be short lived. My text was in response to A. Wayne's naive assumptions with zero merit.

His comments led me to believe that he does not own, and has never owned a high powered 944T - He is yet to prove me or anyone else in this thread wrong. Truth be told, I would love for him to actually own one, that way he could come to the Glen with it and we could run against him.

Horsepower alone means nothing. A peak number means nothing. A proper race engine makes HP/TQ in a large window (area under the curves), so even if a 600HP 944T engine would live on the track, it would have a narrow powerband and be quite a sled out of the turns - There are technical reasons for this which I will gladly get into later.

Back to the points...

In summary... I apologize to Jeff if my post seems directed to him, it was meant to serve as a "if the shoe fits" type of post. Also, in the future, if my text is to be quoted and commented on, please do not used snippets or put spin on my words. That said, I will reiterate, I have NEVER said a 2.5L engine could not make 600 HP - Only that it would not come as easily or inexpensively as A. Wayne suggests.

Gotta run, but I will be back later to address a few additional points.

Landjet

AT A BOY DAVID!!!! And (in a game show host manner) thanks for playing along.

A.Wayne

Scott, LOL,
With all due respect , 485 bhp from a 3.4L , you guys should give Porsche Motorsport a call .
It is very apparent there are a lot of Very challenged 944T racers, 400 plus WHP for track use is basic ,Scott would like you to believe it is a challenge to produce such for the track, for whatever reason. everyone knows their limitations.
475 BHP is near impossibility from a 3.4L 911 aircooled 2V engines. For those interested you can PM me and i will forward the info as to who can help you on the engine front and Scott, I'm very much involved in motorsports at many levels , so you can get off the "if i have a 944 thingy" or naive comments ,i have seen a few ... with a lot more than 450 whp...i have also found those that attack the messenger instead of the content to be of little technical knowledge and merit, please do not apply your limitations to me, a 600 bhp turbo engine does not have to be "peaky" or undrivable. As to words in my "mouth" practice what you preach. Where on here did i say a 600 WHP engine was easy, Never said that , i said a 450 whp 944T engine is basic and easily achievable. Most here don't need a 600 bhp 951, they need 450 -475 to run at the front of GT3, this is easily obtainable with an unrestricted turbo . Your personal attack was uncalled for, everything eventually floats to the surface , we will see..

Skip , give me a pm i can go into more details for you .....

Jeff Lamb

Craig, I stand corrected. When I corresponded with Joe when the car was for sale, he indicated the car was lightened down to the 2,1xx pound level. I did not personally weigh the car so I took him at his word. What did the car actually weigh when you bought it? What does it weigh now?

Jeff

Jeff Lamb

Scott, I apologize if you feel I have quoted you "out of context". It's just that you write such long posts that I am trying to cut through all of the words and get to the core of what you are saying. I didn't think I was quoting you out of context. If I was, I sincerely apologize. I am just trying my best to figure out what you are trying to say.

My basic summary of what you had written was to say that you make it clear there are a number of 3.4 liter air cooled 911s running MORE than 400 HP to the rear wheels on a reliable basis in GT3. If that type of extremely high engine performance is really possible from a 3.4 liter air cooled 911 engine, then what are you saying we can expect to see from a 2.5 liter water cooled 944 turbo engine developed to the same level?? If not 600 hp, then what??

Also, to try to get back to a productive debate -> What do you propose the PCA rules SHOULD have looked like for 2008? It sounds like you want the rules to stay the same as they were in 2007? Is that correct? This is where I want to learn more from your thoughts. I know we can't change things now, BUT if you have a good idea for how the rules should have been changed, I would really like to hear it. You might have some very good suggestions that will help "turn on the light" for many of us.

Oh, and I am completely serious about this -> PLEASE let me know the engine builders for the 3.4 liter air cooled 911s running MORE than 400 HP to the rear wheels on a reliable basis in GT3. Or, let me know who the drivers are. I am extremely interested in looking into having one of these engines built for my new 911 race car. If I can find one, than I completely agree with you that the 944 Turbos have a HUGE challenge on their hands with the new rules.

Jeff

A.Wayne

m42racer

I had a 993 RSR with a M/Sport Sprint engine. It dyno'ed at 405BHP when I got it fresh. After having some work done to it, finally reached 415BHP in Sprint form. The standard form would make 398HP. If you do the math, this is almost the limit of these engines. The engines could not rev any higher without fear the Crank would break and the heads would not flow any more. The biggest Valves that could be put in those heads were installed. 54.00mm Intakes if I remember. Where this guy (Under Pressure) gets his 400+RWHP from, I have no idea. If that was the case and with the known power the rest of the field has, these cars would be racing for the outright win. A 07 Cup engine would be struggling to make those numbers. Their 3.8L 4V engines! I think the underlining theme of his posts tells the story here. "To make a point I am really going to make a point". I struggle to read his posts completely as they are so off the point with what I consider false facts. I am sorry if I am the odd one here, its just hard to read something that is so off beat.

The rules are set. We cannot change them at this point, but they say they may review them if the competition is one sided. So lets get on with it. Let those with 400+RWHP 3.4L 911 come race. Whatever you have, race it!! Let the engine builders brag about the "real" numbers in the pit lane.

Doing the math, if I'm correct, a 2.1L Turbo 911 engine would have to weigh 2430 Lbs. 2 Valve 6 Cylinder engine. A 944 2 Valve engine weighing the same would come in at 2.2L. Seems do able if the cars can get down to weight. The only factor is the number of Cylinders. Engine configuration is going to be critical. The only issue I can see is this. You have to work on the Cahssis first and get all of the weight out of it possible. Lightweight parts and body work. Throw away all of the gauges you never look at, and install 1 shift light and 1 Oil Press light. The rest go. Who cares if it gets hot. Now you have bthe car down to it's minimum weight, now you can build and engine. Without knowing the cars absolute minium weight, you cannot decide upon the displacement. I see this as a problem for most, including the engine builders. What parts do you stock? Otherwise you run with an engine size and add ballast. Seems counter culture to me.

I think those engine builders that make 400+RWP from 3.4L NA engines would welcome the competition.

These rules are going to separate the real players from the "make believers". Those that have survived from selling the same old stuff under vthe old rules will not survive here. It's going to take real money, real engineering to make anything win in the lower classes. 6 or 4 Cylinder, you are going to have to step up your game to be competitive. Great opportunity for the vendors and builders to show their stuff. Some already have. Some have have not. The cost increase to be competitive will limit some to enable them to go racing. I hope they make allowances and let them race for other class wins. Those that come to race will upgrade the fields for sure.

I'm looking forward to the challenge, and cannot wait to see who comes to the table with some new and well thought out solutions for us to buy.

A.Wayne

m42racer

We see 398 with RSR intake and 415 with TBI's , so your numbers are spot on for the category, Mr Gomes must be "winging it a bit" I would have to say under pressure is "under pressure" at the moment

m42racer

Question for "Under Pressure". I'm sorry I don't know who you are so I have to call you this.

Do you mean Turbocharged 911's in GT3 that make over 400+RWHP. I will agree there are Turbocharged examples of this. But NA, no sir you are the one who needs to re look at your math. There are calculations that can prove the theorical power output any engine can produce. These numbers are always higher than real as Friction and other factors come into play. Any qualified engine producer uses these calculations amongst many others to design the configuration. Even taking the airflow numbers from the heads can give a possible HP number.

I figure you are meaning Turbocharged examples.

Phew, for a minute there I was starting to doubt my own math.

Jeff Lamb

m42racer, thanks for your additional info. Since I don't know the 911s as well as I should, what was the displacment of your 993 RSR engine? Was it a 3.8 liter configuration? The reason I am asking is that we have been discussing the 3.4 liter engines quite a bit and I want to make sure to clarify.

Jeff

Jeff Lamb

Folks, I have been getting so distracted by the other issues contained in this debate that I keep forgetting to mention that there is one big thing about the 2008 rules changes that does bother me (and should bother everyone running in the GT classes - no matter what car type you are running).

Here is what it is -> The GT rules changes were significant. And, for any significant change to the rules, the racing organization should give plenty of advance notice of the rules changes so that racers will have an appropriate amount of TIME adapt their engines or chassis or safety equipment or whatever to meet the rules. From what I have seen, the 2008 rules changes were released this month. That means, those racers who are the most impacted only have a little over a month to adapt their engines and chassis before the new rules take effect. This just isn't enough time. I do believe some form of change in the rules was needed and, so far, I do support the rules that PCA developed. HOWEVER, I think it would have been much better if the new GT rules didn't take effect until the 2009 racing season. This would have given every racer ample time to make changes.

Is there anyone on this list who has the power to delay the imposition of the new GT rules for one year??

Jeff

m42racer

Jeff,

Yes they were all 3.8L. 102.00mmm bore by 76.40mm stroke. I know of 1 4.0L example that was built, but this was for a street car, never raced.

I figure this "under Pressure" guy either has been talking about Turbocharged examples or just said something without thinking and pride has taken over. I know, we all do this from time to time. If I was looking at having an engine built, I would want to go somewhere where the numbers discussed are real, achievable and based upon good engineering data. If he still contends there are NA engines out there with this sort of power, I would consider another builder for sure.

Your point about the timing is dead on. Seems the idea of giving the racers more time was never considered.