Jeff Lamb

m42racer, thanks for the clarification. Regarding producing over 400 rwhp from a normally aspirated, air cooled, 3.4 liter 911 engine, my guess is that Scott possibly witnessed guys running in the old GT3 class who were cheating on their displacement (they were running 3.8 liter engines in a class where the largest allowed engine is 3.4 liters) OR a select few figured out how to use their roll cage as a container for nitrous and they were illegally "on the bottle" when running PCA events.

However, if there truly is an engine builder who can build me a PCA legal 3.4 liter, normally aspirated, air cooled 911 engine producing a reliable 400 hp to the REAR WHEELS for club racing, I again say that I would love to get in touch with them.

Jeff

SoloRacer

I'm reading all this and was just wondering why there is a perceived "need" to have these rule changes to begin with. Is it because the 951's were dominating the series? If so, how could anyone deny that these changes were aimed specifically at those cars?

A.Wayne

Solo, the rules where out of wack for years, turbo cars had a huge power advantage, The NA cars did not stand a chance if turbo cars done to the limit of the rules turned up. Personally i would have preferred to have seen turbo restrictors instead of adding weight , the extra weight makes the cars less safe, they should have adopted a min weight for GT3 and used inlet restrictors on the turbos to balance the PWR .

SoloRacer

So you are saying 911 turbo's were dominating this class?

Landjet

Jeff I know you had no way of knowing thats why I was trying to having a little fun, get a chuckle and lighten things up a little but it's hard to play with expressions and voice tones on the computer.
Moving on, Koken is the one who built the car for Joe and I found it on LR website for sale. It was closer to the #2200lb mark when I got it. I put a lexan windshield in, some other odds and ends and it is now around #2150. Can it get lighter? Yes with a Kokeln rear suspension and carbon fiber roof and another 3to 4 thousand dollars I could get another say 40 to 50lbs out. Is it safe at this weight? I hope I never have to find out but I would feel safer in a #2400 or #2500lb car which is the NORM. Anyone looking at the pictures who races or builds these cars knows this is not the NORM as far as weight prep for a 944T in GT3 but I felt this was a must to be able to try and compete with the #1800 to #1900lb 911's/914's in GT3 which is the NORM. They can achive this weight much, much easier since they are lighter to start with. With this in mind I have spent $$$ and have a pretty well built and tuned engine putting down 362whp at 16.5lbs of boost which I feel hp wise is closer to the NORM for GT3 944T's maybe it's a little higher. With this in mind am I still not in the hp/weight range of most 911/914s' in GT3. Was I running up front? Yes. Was I dominating the class? No. Was I planning on coming out with a new smoking gun this year to help close the gap? Yes I was going to go to a 2.6 but now plans have changed.
Finally having raced in the past, present, and hopefuly future, reading what has been posted here, this is my final thought. I think we can all argee that 911/914's are lighter than 944T's, 1800 to 1900lbs is not out of line for GT3 prep. The norm for a 944T in my years of running is 2400 to 2500lb range. HP for 911's in this class most think 400whp is high and 350whp is vey doable. For 944T's it seems it should be in the 400whp range. So lets take the higher weight of 1900lbs and a bit lower whp of 340 for the 911 and we get 5.58lbs per hp for the 911. Let take say 2450lbs for the 944 and the (what I feel is still a bit high) of 400whp and we get 6.12lbs per hp. You can move the numbers on both sides around some to suit your own thoughts. But looking at the results of club racing around the country, pushing realistic numbers I still don't see where or why the MAJORITY of the 944T's in GT3 should have new rules to live by with again the majority not even running up front. Unlimited turbo's, boost, money beating up the n/a 911 crowd so what, that is not the NORM and if it were why not say hey 911/914 guys why not further develope your cars, some in the 944 crowd are. If they weren't it would all be a mute point.

A.Wayne

No, turbos could still dominate the class, 951 or 911 T, it would take a special 911T to run gt3 , the engine could be no bigger than a 2.6 L. most of the 951's run mid pack in GT3 , because there preparations where never the same as most of the 911's running in the class, the better prepared 951's ran at the point. One thing that is also being overlooked here, most of PCA is 911 based, the new rules will always favor the majority, If the 951 community was more active and out in more numbers , I'm sure more would have gone their way , the squeaky wheel theory.

Landjet , i would agree on the 914 , but for a 911 i would use 2100, i would say a top gt3 911 @ 2100 making tops 340 whp has a PWR of 6.0:1( reality most are in the 300 whp range) a 951 running @ 425 whp and weighing 2750 is 6.4:1. Now the 911 has the advantage , if if was allowed to run at that weight , but remember the 911 has nothing more to give via bhp, the 951 can move whp to 475 and the picture changes, you have a level playing field.. why you choose to run at such a conservative power level is by your choice and under the new rules you would be uncompetitive, the other side, is your power output is virtually unlimited do to the unrestricted turbo the rules still allow, as said before i would have favored a lower min weight and turbo inlet restrictors , this would have been more favorable for everyone involved .

Skip Wolfe

It's in the signiture line of all of his posts:

Scott Gomes
Web: www.area951.com
Email: speedfreak@area951.com

What do we call you?

warpedrotor

Great news now all 944t owners "power output is virtually unlimited do to the unrestricted turbo" where do i sign up? fantasy land. or maybe i should head down to turbo's r us. Maybe all this unlimited power is available for three easy payments. Its just great to know that all this power is now available in my poorley prepared 944t.

SoloRacer

A. Wayne: So now I'm confused. The turbo cars were not dominating the class, yet it was necessary to put rules in place to further restrict them? If the turbo cars were at so much of an advantage wouldn't you expect more guys to be running turbo cars? Why run N/A if the rules allow a turbo that will get you to the top? I would have expected a mass exodus to turbo cars if the rules were as slanted as is being made out.

I also think that people are being dishonest in saying the that rules were directed at "turbo" cars not specifically the 951 platform since from the sounds of things there aren't too many turbo 911's running and even if they did the rule changes don't affect them.

Chris Prack

As far as Woodies (former) car goes I have seen the engine dyno chart and know the car very well.

What you need to remember is Woodies former car as it is now is not the first version of the chassis. It went through a several stage process to get where it was went it was sold and then again to where it is now. There was a lot of money spent on the chasis there is no doubt. Could it be duplicated for a lot less money? Absolutely.

I don't think the discussion here is about develpmental costs but the new rules we are now faced with in CR.

BTW, in reguard to a 3.4 making 400rwhp. I would like to see that. We ran a GT2 911 with a 3.8 high butterfly Motec controlled engine that made approx. 385hp on an engine dyno in the late 90's. The car ran at roughly 2k lbs. and was very competetive in class winning many races and podiums almost every time out.

m42racer

""It's in the signiture line of all of his posts:

Scott Gomes
Web: www.area951.com
Email: speedfreak@area951.com

What do we call you?""

I'm sorry I didn't read that far. My bad. Just call me Mr Tibbs!!

Jeff Lamb

I think it's very cool that you have Joe's old car. I was wondering where it ended up. Now I know!! The picture in your avatar is just small enough so I couldn't figure it out. I do appreciate your contributions to this debate because you have a car that represents a light weight 944 turbo.

Craig, I am told by the builder of the 911 race car that I just bought that it weighed around 1,950 pounds when it had a fairly light 915 trans in it. Since then, a 930 trans has been installed and I added some extra door bars to the cage. I expect the car will weigh right around 2,000 pounds or slightly over. However, please note that I have not been able to personally weigh the car so I don't have first hand knowledge on what my new car weighs yet.

Trust me though, your 2,100 pound 944 turbo is every bit as safe as any 2,000 pound 911 race car out there. And, as tough as it is to get a 944 turbo down to 2,100 pounds even, it is just as tough to get a 911 race car down to the 1,950 to 2,000 pound range. Would a heavier car be more safe. Maybe. But then again, maybe not. It's all in the design of the cage and the crush zones, etc.

I still am not quite sure why you believe other 944 turbo racers couldn't build light weight cars just like yours. The techniques used on your car are very similar to what many 911s have already done.

I agree that your light weight car with the proper engine has been and will continue to be a lot of fun to race. And, it is very unfortunate that the new GT rules go into effect immediately on 1/1/08. I wish the PCA would have delayed the implementation until 1/1/09.

Jeff

A.Wayne

Solo,

If you built a 951 with the original rules there is no 911 on the planet running in GT3 to beat it, so Yes well built 951's where faster than the fastest 911 running to gt3 specs, they did not dominate gt3 , because the numbers are small. most people choose to build 911's instead of spending the money on a 951, for what ever reason...

333pg333

May I ask who, or what cars have won the past 5 series for example?

Chris Prack

Neither are going to happen. The only 2.5 engine that I know of that made 600whp is ST's and that thing will not make it a season on the race track. Not to mention that it will get killed in the corners. This is not a knock on the engine but more of a reality check. Peak numbers don't mean anything. AVERAGE numbers are what you want. If you have a motor that makes 470whp for 3-4k rpms and has a curve that looks like a table top vs. one that makes 600whp for 1.5k rpm and looks like a triangle in the same chassis the "lesser" powered setup will crush the "power" motor all day everyday.

I did a 3.6 with RSR intake, Motec and modern cams that made 380 on the engine dyno. Could it have made more? Sure on race fuel and timing changes. Could it make 400whp? No IMO. Not even close.

I do not disagree that the 951 had an advantage in GT3. Remeber the thread I started earlier this year about us kicking the fields *** at Road Atlanta? We were 14 seconds ahead of the field in the sprint race before we got black flagged at the end for passing under a corner yellow or some nonsense like that.

The problem that I have is how they chose to "correct" this. We are in the process of building a 2.6 for GT3 but that may now change. We considered building a 3.0 and running GT1 for fun. That may now be a reality. I guess we will discuss it tommorrow when I come back off of vacation.