Chris White

I was keeping him in GT3!

Chris White

PCA already does that for E/F stock class 944T. A car is choosen at random and has to run with the sesor attached and logging data

Jeff Lamb

Insert Homer Simpson "DOH!!" here. You make a good point. Sorry I missed that. I am a little slow on the uptake sometimes . . .

Jeff

95ONE

I'm guessing electric boost controllers aren't allowed? A simple push of one button changes things up. put a senssor on me. I don't push a button. Take it off for the next race. I push it.
There are numerous ways I could make boost raise. Hell, I could even Fool the damn sensor they install by bleeding off air before the sensor. It would be too easy to cheat. And cheat, many are. (Yoda speak) So.. I prefer to compete in a class where that's not even an issue for me or anyone else.

But hell. maybe just passing events and DE's for me next year anyway.

Jeff Lamb

You make a very good point. Under the new PCA rules, if you are running a turbo car, you can run ANY boost level you want!! In NASA, things get much more complicated because they have to find some way to monitor boost levels.

Jeff

m42racer

As I understand the new formula, you have only 1 variable to work with. Weight. After this, whatever displacement you choose, you need to make as much performance as possible. Both will cost and drive up the cost of going racing.

I am sure you will see more smaller displacement Turbocharged 911's and now if you want to be competitive, smaller displacement 944 Turbocharged based cars. The business to be in, is going to be composite and non ferrous parts to lower the weight of these cars.

Question.
What is the actual weight of the car? What is the car? As it starts the race or as it finishes? When do they weigh it? When you have rules like this, the limits are going to be very precise. I expect its before the race. Empty or full? M'mmmm. Gentleman start your cheating.

Jeff Lamb

m42racer, you make some very good points. Any series that uses weight as a factor will introduce the possibility of cheating with weight. If you weigh the car before the race, just sneak off to the side and throw your lead bars out that you used to make weight and then you can run the race. If you weigh the car after the race, just pass by your crew on the way in and sneak some lead bars into the car!!

I reviewed the new rules changes and I don't see where any of your questions are answered. I wonder if your questions are answered elsewhere in the rules? Or, if PCA might need to issue an addendum to address these important questions?

Jeff

m42racer

Jeff,

I figure it's covered under that "unwritten rule", it's our (PCA) interpetation of the what we feel the spirit of the rules mean.

BS in my opinion. If you write rules like they have, you cannot have an "what we feel the spirit means" clause.

When the limits to run a certain classes are written the way they are, getting down to the PR number to run in GT3 for example will require money and fore thought. There is no room for "our interpetation".

RandPierson

M42 It's really pretty basic. As anyone who has raced with any sanctioning body knows, your car must comply with all rules whenever it is on the track. You must run legal weight and displacement at the beginning, middle and end of the race.

I am also not sure that I understand your issue on weight. Are you proposing that the old formula with absolutely no weight factor encouraged people to reduce their weight less that one where after a point, further reduction will actually move you up a class?

m42racer

Not sure I understand your point, my bad here, I am saying that when the rules are written where weight is now the main factor, the only factor that can be altered, the interpetation of the rules comes into play more.

To be competitive, some cars are going to "just make it" with respect to the class they run in. Your comment about being legal at the start, middle and end is my problem. I have enough fuel on board to make it to the end at the start. Does this mean I have to carry more weight to cover the fuel loss? Is there a rule to cover this? My point is what is the actual weight of the car? Empty, full, with what fluids? Whats full?

Under Pressure Performance

Fellow Rennlisters,

As promised, I will begin my more in-depth thoughts and opinions on the GT rule changes. Please consider this a continuation of my previous posts, which means that the following text is not to be taken in consideration without first reading and understanding what I have already written about the changes.

So, I guess the best way to start is by reiterating that I personally take no offense to the proposed rule changes, nor do I feel compelled to argue what should have/could have been done differently - Truth is, this has been a long time coming, and the time for that sort of action has passed long ago.

Count me as one of those parties that did take action. I did send several emails to members of the rules advisory board, and I also sent several emails expressing my concerns to the rules committee before the deadline for input. In short, if you did not take the time to get involved in the process when your actions could have made a difference, then forget about what could have been/or should have been done - It is beyond the point of discussion/negotiation. The rules have changed, and from here forward the only thing most 944T guys need to worry about is what class they will get beat up in next year.

So, what does this rule change REALLY mean for most 944T guys/girls? Well, what it really means is that if you were not already running in the top half of GT3, then you have some serious thinking to do about where you want to end up in PCA club racing. Jeff Lamb and A. Wayne would like you to believe that this rule change is not so bad for the 944T people, when in fact, it IS bad. Truth be told, I do not comprehend how anyone with a modified 944T would view it as not bad. But let me explain...

First of all, I feel I must say this, before I go any further... Jeff and I go pretty far back. We used to have very long 944 discussions years ago and I respect him and respect his analytical approach to things. So I do not want anyone to feel as though any of our exchanges are ill intended, or in any way meant as bickering back and forth. I am sure he will tell you that it is this type of correspondence that brings thoughts, ideas, opinions, and solutions to the table. But more than that, comes understanding of different view points/perspectives. Jeff is a bright guy and I have always valued his willingness to throw his thoughts and opinions on the table to not only see where others stand, but to also take other views into consideration. Surely Jeff would reinforce the above as true.

Now on to the juicy stuff...

With this thread taking so many directions and tangents, I figured I would reel back in the core elements and address the areas that I could not elaborate on in my earlier posts.

To do this, it is important to understand that it is quite clear to me and to everyone with a 944T that this rule affects that this rule change applies to EVERYONE, not just the 944T guys, and we understand that the 911 based cars have to play by the same set of rules - This is clear as a bell.

That said, it is equally as important to understand that while this rule change "applies" to everyone in the GT classes, it does not "affect" everyone. Again, it is important to understand this fully before posing an argument about two fictitious cars of equal weight with driver with two different displacements having an advantage or disadvantage, or being able to stay in class or move to another class - As i have said in the past, this is a moot/invalid point because there simply are no REAL instances where this argument has any merit, therefore it should not be considered in the discussion of why this rule change is bad for 944T's.

Taking the above into consideration, let's just stick to the real world and establish that for all intents and purposes, the 911 cars are virtually immune to this rule change (as was designed to be) As in my previous examples, virtually all turbo 911's are in GT1, and virtually all big displacement 911's are in GT2, and virtually all smaller displacement 911's are in GT3. That is how it was under the old rules, that is how it is under the new rules.

OK, so the moderately built/tuned 944T's can stay in GT3, as long as they are a stock 100mm bore and cross the line weighing 2735# or more. Did you ever bore your block to an oversize, or run your car right up to the old 2.61L limit? If so, then you will have to cross the line at 2874# - That's right, another 140# for that overbore to stay in GT3 - That's like taking a passenger out with you.

Now, let's assume under the old rules your car weighed 2,550# with you in it and five gallons of fuel (we will round that to 30# just for argument), and assume you were fairly competitive in GT3 making 400 RWHP - That did not get you to the front of the pack, but you could run midpack in the mix of all the 911's. At the end of the race, your car weighed roughly 2520# because of the fuel you used, and you still could not run up front.

Well, under the new rules you have to cross the line weighing another 215# more! We won't bother doing the math for the 2.61L.

So, what does this REALLY mean, well, let's put it this way... The really fast 911N/A cars that do run up front make 400RWHP+ and they can weigh as little as 1940# for a 3.2L, and a 3.4L can weigh as little as 2060#

Now, let's get into what this REALLY means...

For starters, it becomes abundantly clear why you can keep pace with these cars with your moderately tuned 400 RWHP 944T - They already had a HUGE weight advantage over you to begin with. Now do you see why they squirt away from you out of the corners? Now do you see why they can brake later? Now do you see why you were not running at the front with 400 RWHP? It is not that you didn't have enough power, it is that you had to brake earlier, throwing away time there, and also having to wait a little longer to get on the gas out of a turn, and even worse, having to accelerate the extra mass out of the turn.

Now, let's think about this a bit more...

Under the new rules (using the example above) you would have to add another 215# to your car, surely this won't help your braking. Surely it won't help your cornering. And surely it won't help your acceleration.

So, it is not just a weight penalty for the 944T guy, but a HUGE weight disadvantage. Here is a rough example to make my point a bit clearer...

Assume a 400RWHP 3.4L 911 running against a 400RWHP 2.5L 944T - On the surface this seems like a good race, but consider that the 911 weighs the minimum allowable in GT3 for his PI and displacement (2040#) and the 944T weighs the minimum allowable in GT3 for his PI and displacement (2735#) - Well, it is blatantly clear at this point who has the ADVANTAGE. This rule change is not the equalizer many want you to believe it to be, here's why...

Using rough math and basic physics, let's assume it takes roughly one additional horsepower to accelerate every ten pounds of weight at the same rate. In the example above you have 695# of extra weight to accelerate around the track. That means that to be able to accelerate at the same rate as the 911 you have to make 69.5 more RWHP just to accelerate at the same rate, which means that you need to make roughly another 80 more HP at the crank just to accelerate at the same rate! What do you think will happen when you have to slow down? Turn? Who do you think will be able to brake later?

Here's a test, load five passengers in your daily driver, get up to speed and see how much longer it takes you to slow down during an abrupt stop. How well do you think your car will handle taking an exit in spirited fashion with five people in it? Starting to see my point yet?

For now, we won't even get into the discussion of additional driveline load which leads to potential premature failures. We won't get into a deep discussion about how simply turning up the wick on a turbo car does NOT yield magical powers. But I will say this... Is it true that you can get additional power from a turbo car easier than with a N/A car, well, yes and no. Yes, you can turn a **** make more boost and make some additional power, but at what cost? The front running 944T's are running VERY high strung as it is. There is not much remaining headroom left in the highest of developed cars, trust me, I know. That's not to say that there is not more power to be made, but with added weight reliability becomes a VERY REAL issue.

Simply turning a **** is not the answer, heck in a well developed turbo race car with a relatively efficient turbocharger and intercooler, once everything gets up to operating temperature and heat soaked, you are lucky to get 15HP per additional pound of boost - Considering what boost pressures some of the 944T guys are already running, this is not a viable option - Certainly not an option to overcome a 80 HP deficit in a non competitive midpack 944T car.

And the argument that 911 guys have developed their cars to utopia - Well, this is simply not the case. There is a LOT that many of these guys can still do to make more power. I know what we have to do to a 944T to run up front, and I know that guys in 911's that have the ability to run just as quick lap times do not have remotely close to the level of development we have in these engines, NOT EVEN CLOSE.

You mention 911 guys having 50K, 60K in their engines, well how about the handful of 4 cylinder guys that have 1.5 times that invested in the engine alone? Cash outlay is not exclusive to high level 911 performance. Here is my challenge, anyone with a 911 that runs against any one of my guys that complains that he has his car developed to the end of the earth and can't be competitive, bring your car to me - Commit to spend as much as the guy that just handed you your back side, and I guarantee you that I can find the power to get you up front - GUARANTEED!

Two years ago, I had this EXACT argument with Chris Musante. He runs a 911 and kept complaining to us and everyone else that he was upset at the 944T cars in GT3 because he built his car "to the limit" and could not be competitive. He went on and on about it, and how we should enjoy our time at the top because once the rules changed, everything would be be different. So I asked him why he thought his car was "at the limit" and he told me it was because he has been building Porsches for 20 years and he KNEW it was at the limit. So I inquired as to what he had in his car and I almost choked when he told me it was running carbs. So wait! - Your car is "at the limit" of development, and it is running carbs? I asked about the cams, the valvetrain configuration, the rotating assembly, and he then realized where I was going with it. Then I explained to him that the 944T's he was getting beaten by were developed beyond what he was running. Then, in jest, I offered to build an engine for him - He walked away.

BUT, the real point to that story is not that his engine was not developed "to the limit" as he wanted us to believe, but at the end of the season, he went back to the drawing board and the following year he came back with a better prepared/tuned vehicle. THAT is what racing should be about!

My point is that the notion that 944T's have some unlimited advantage over a N/A car simply because it has turbo is simply innately wrong. Ask anyone with a modestly built 944T and they will tell you the power does not come as easily, cheaply, or reliably as some may choose to believe.

Sorry for the long winded post - Trust me, I have so much more to say, but I have tried to condense this post to only the key points.

Hopefully I have given a bit more insight to how this rule change affects the 944T, and I hope that if nothing else it was entertaining reading. Thanks to all that read my stuff, and thanks to all that care enough to respond and get involved in discussions like this.

Sincerely...

Luis de Prat

Scott, I'm not active in the sport but I've followed your posts since the days of the "Tuner Wars" and really admire the work you've been doing with the 944T. Thanks for the explanation.

333pg333

Very interesting to read as an outsider. I wouldn't want to be on the jury however the 944's have it at this juncture.

Chris White

Watch for drivers with buldging pockets!!! 40lbs of weight in the pockets for weigh in would be easy enough!

Chris White

Well put Scott....and I always wondered what you did at 3:50am....