Are 944 Turbos at a Disadvantage in PCA Club Racing?
#151
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
951and944S
Yeah PCA, has him listed in GT3S with a 89 951, but the car no is different in GT3 it is 00. Regardless scott left this info out and if you look at the GT3 lap times over the years his lap times are still 3-4 seconds slower that other 951's. 911 Na's don't stand a chance at Sebring under the old PCA rules....
1.Sebring 951 lap record GT3
2.At road Atlanta it was the same again 951 , P1 lap record for gt3
3. The Glen Roy Chong has the lap record , porsche 951 1.59 GT3
4. Road america Porsche 968 T lap record GT3
5.Mosport , lap record 951 T. GT3
6. Limerock , roy chong , 951 lap record GT3
7. Putnam park Scott Denmark 89 968 RS TURBO lap record GT3
you can see from above that the tracks these cars turn up to and race , they hold the track records for lap times , i will speculate and say for the other tracks the 911 have it , because there where no competition from the turbos. when the turbos turn up the NA don't have a chance, Now for those who could'nt understand the need for the rule change , here it is .
As to your car if you are putting down more than 400 whp + you will run at the point , if your driving is there
Yeah PCA, has him listed in GT3S with a 89 951, but the car no is different in GT3 it is 00. Regardless scott left this info out and if you look at the GT3 lap times over the years his lap times are still 3-4 seconds slower that other 951's. 911 Na's don't stand a chance at Sebring under the old PCA rules....
1.Sebring 951 lap record GT3
2.At road Atlanta it was the same again 951 , P1 lap record for gt3
3. The Glen Roy Chong has the lap record , porsche 951 1.59 GT3
4. Road america Porsche 968 T lap record GT3
5.Mosport , lap record 951 T. GT3
6. Limerock , roy chong , 951 lap record GT3
7. Putnam park Scott Denmark 89 968 RS TURBO lap record GT3
you can see from above that the tracks these cars turn up to and race , they hold the track records for lap times , i will speculate and say for the other tracks the 911 have it , because there where no competition from the turbos. when the turbos turn up the NA don't have a chance, Now for those who could'nt understand the need for the rule change , here it is .
As to your car if you are putting down more than 400 whp + you will run at the point , if your driving is there
Last edited by A.Wayne; 11-26-2007 at 01:46 AM.
#152
Rennlist Member
So if the 951 has an advantage at Sebring does that mean that it has an advantage at all tracks?
#153
Race Car
#154
Instructor
Misleading discourse? C'mon, you are kidding right.
A poster asked to see the results from five races, so I went to the PCA site and took the first five races - I did not take ONLY the races where the 911's did well, I did not spin the results - The final results I posted were straight from the web site.
It is completely irrelevant who turns a faster single lap, it is the end result that matters. Who crossed the finish line first. Again, I did not single out Sebring, it was the first race and I took the first five top to bottom. If you are going to say that 944T lose because of driver error, perhaps it is because his car weighs more, does not brake as well, or does not handle as well overall? And for mechanical failure, well, this could be a result of having to run the engine harder to be competitive.
Let me just say that I acknowledge that 944T's can be a formidable foe at any given track, there is no doubt about it, BUT they are not the threat, and do not have the inherent advantage that you imply. So, I have not, and do not disagree with you that the fully prepared 944T's give the fully prepared 911's something to think about, however, that is what racing is all about.
A car that DNF's a race is not a threat? A car that turns a fast lap during qualifying but cannot hold the lead (for whatever reason) is not a threat. In other words, it is the end result that matters, and part of the problem for some 944 guys is getting across the line at all.
Back in one of my previous posts I eluded to the reliability issues when turning up the wick, and how that is an area that requires serious operating costs for many 944T racers.
Are there tracks where 944T's have an advantage, perhaps, but then you have to pose the argument the other way as well. There are tracks that serve the 911's well too.
Nothing constructive to add? From your perspective you are absolutely correct. Perhaps those on the affected side feel differently? Hopefully I have given some insight and shed some light on how this rule change affects them. Or, perhaps I am wrong, perhaps the 944 crowd has been more greatly benefited by your "constructive" thoughts?
By stating that I misquoted you "again" you imply that I misquoted you previously, which I do not feel as though I have, but to be on the safe side, I figured I would actually quote you post in my reply since it is primarily a response to your post.
That said, I admit, I responded to your post with an inaccuracy. You did write 475 BHP, and for some reason I responded as is you wrote 475 WHP - As such, please accept my sincerest apology.
Where and what do you race, sincerely, I am curious. What tracks do you frequent. Not be be taken as ill intentioned, but have you ever owned/raced a prepared/developed 944T? Also, I am wondering, to what point of development would you say your car is at? Again, I promise the utmost sincerity in these questions, so it would be great if you responded to them.
By the way, as much as this has gone back and forth and as passionate you and I are in our respective positions, I will say that I have enjoyed the exchanges between you and I. <----- Sincerely
A poster asked to see the results from five races, so I went to the PCA site and took the first five races - I did not take ONLY the races where the 911's did well, I did not spin the results - The final results I posted were straight from the web site.
Let me just say that I acknowledge that 944T's can be a formidable foe at any given track, there is no doubt about it, BUT they are not the threat, and do not have the inherent advantage that you imply. So, I have not, and do not disagree with you that the fully prepared 944T's give the fully prepared 911's something to think about, however, that is what racing is all about.
A car that DNF's a race is not a threat? A car that turns a fast lap during qualifying but cannot hold the lead (for whatever reason) is not a threat. In other words, it is the end result that matters, and part of the problem for some 944 guys is getting across the line at all.
Back in one of my previous posts I eluded to the reliability issues when turning up the wick, and how that is an area that requires serious operating costs for many 944T racers.
Are there tracks where 944T's have an advantage, perhaps, but then you have to pose the argument the other way as well. There are tracks that serve the 911's well too.
with all due respect , It is obvious that you have nothing constructive to add, if you are now resorting to this , it is obvious you will not give up your lost argument ....there is no way under the old PCA rules for a 911 to beat a correctly prepared 951 unless driver error , or mechanical gremlin...
That said, I admit, I responded to your post with an inaccuracy. You did write 475 BHP, and for some reason I responded as is you wrote 475 WHP - As such, please accept my sincerest apology.
Where and what do you race, sincerely, I am curious. What tracks do you frequent. Not be be taken as ill intentioned, but have you ever owned/raced a prepared/developed 944T? Also, I am wondering, to what point of development would you say your car is at? Again, I promise the utmost sincerity in these questions, so it would be great if you responded to them.
By the way, as much as this has gone back and forth and as passionate you and I are in our respective positions, I will say that I have enjoyed the exchanges between you and I. <----- Sincerely
#155
Instructor
Sorry, I was unaware that this guy does not own a GT3 car and that there must have been a transponder issue.I do not know him personally, so I am not sure how I could have known this beforehand? - But I apologize anyway.
#156
Race Car
Ha ha....!
400 whp is my goal, pretty much stock long block except for the ITBs.
Anyways, surely don't mean to divert this thread to another direction.
Just thought I'd point out that Chris's car is E class and nowhere near a 2:15 second car around Sebring just for the sake of this argument.
I tried to find a jpeg of his car in the meantime but the motorsports section of his contractor website is temporarily down, the car is -00- and carries large 'Buckeye Contractors' decals.
My son put the splitter on it while I was fixing a clutch in another Mardi Gras Region member's SP2 car.
Crazy time that weekend was......the guy I normally travel to support accidentally swigged a bottle of blue brake fluid at race time on Sunday, thought it was cranberry juice from the night before cranberry and Vodka drinks.
The black McDonald's car #492 had previously been in a heavy impact.
He had the 944 "Euro" engine rebuild soon after we swapped all his drivetrain from the wrecked chassis to another.
The shop didn't notice the torque tube flange had bent and the disc shredded in 20 minutes track time. Drove 13 hours to get there from Louisiana at midnight.
Started the tear down (long tube header has to come off) at 8:30am and had the driver on track for 11:20.
Ah well......back on topic.
T
#157
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Scott race victories have a lot of variables , the fastest lap times or pole position lap times tell the full potential of the car, the 911 have larger entries, if you had at least 3 competitive 951's at every race , it would be a cold day in hell for a 911 NA to win a race, they win due to better track preparation , that's it . The new rules level the playing field a bit , again with an unrestricted turbo , boost is your friend..
#158
Race Car
#159
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Uhm.....when I finally get down to firing it up, I'm sorta counting on someone with DTA experience......!
Ha ha....!
400 whp is my goal, pretty much stock long block except for the ITBs.
Anyways, surely don't mean to divert this thread to another direction.
Just thought I'd point out that Chris's car is E class and nowhere near a 2:15 second car around Sebring just for the sake of this argument.
I tried to find a jpeg of his car in the meantime but the motorsports section of his contractor website is temporarily down, the car is -00- and carries large 'Buckeye Contractors' decals.
My son put the splitter on it while I was fixing a clutch in another Mardi Gras Region member's SP2 car.
Crazy time that weekend was......the guy I normally travel to support accidentally swigged a bottle of blue brake fluid at race time on Sunday, thought it was cranberry juice from the night before cranberry and Vodka drinks.
The black McDonald's car #492 had previously been in a heavy impact.
He had the 944 "Euro" engine rebuild soon after we swapped all his drivetrain from the wrecked chassis to another.
The shop didn't notice the torque tube flange had bent and the disc shredded in 20 minutes track time. Drove 13 hours to get there from Louisiana at midnight.
Started the tear down (long tube header has to come off) at 8:30am and had the driver on track for 11:20.
Ah well......back on topic.
T
Ha ha....!
400 whp is my goal, pretty much stock long block except for the ITBs.
Anyways, surely don't mean to divert this thread to another direction.
Just thought I'd point out that Chris's car is E class and nowhere near a 2:15 second car around Sebring just for the sake of this argument.
I tried to find a jpeg of his car in the meantime but the motorsports section of his contractor website is temporarily down, the car is -00- and carries large 'Buckeye Contractors' decals.
My son put the splitter on it while I was fixing a clutch in another Mardi Gras Region member's SP2 car.
Crazy time that weekend was......the guy I normally travel to support accidentally swigged a bottle of blue brake fluid at race time on Sunday, thought it was cranberry juice from the night before cranberry and Vodka drinks.
The black McDonald's car #492 had previously been in a heavy impact.
He had the 944 "Euro" engine rebuild soon after we swapped all his drivetrain from the wrecked chassis to another.
The shop didn't notice the torque tube flange had bent and the disc shredded in 20 minutes track time. Drove 13 hours to get there from Louisiana at midnight.
Started the tear down (long tube header has to come off) at 8:30am and had the driver on track for 11:20.
Ah well......back on topic.
T
Yeah 400 whp is entry to the club , it will put you at the point for GT3.
WOW your guy drank super blue , WOW! is he alright ? are you doing Sebring ?
#160
Race Car
I usually drive to the track and it's a pretty big haul if I lay a connecting rod on the track so far from home.
I should be there as mechanical support for some of the Mardi Gras guys and yes, the driver that swigged the brake fluid was debating to get his stomach pumped out when I drove into the track Sunday morning but was confident he spit it all back up.....ha ha...!
I'll let you know as time draws near, maybe we can meet up.
I was trying to drum up credentials to check out the trade show at the convention center but got too busy to go anyway.
T
#161
Instructor
Scott race victories have a lot of variables , the fastest lap times or pole position lap times tell the full potential of the car, the 911 have larger entries, if you had at least 3 competitive 951's at every race , it would be a cold day in hell for a 911 NA to win a race, they win due to better track preparation , that's it . The new rules level the playing field a bit , again with an unrestricted turbo , boost is your friend..
As I have said, I acknowledge there are fast 944T's, however, at some events you may have one, or two that have a chance at the top five, and at other event, where the track may favor the characteristics of the 944T, it has a more likely than not chance of placing top three, and perhaps taking the checker first, but again, these are the exceptions and only a handful of these cars really pose a threat.
From what I gather, the rule change was almost a preemptive strike, just in case the 944T community up-rises to dominate the field.
Some tracks favor the 911, some favor the 944T. As a whole, the 944T has more potential at the expense of some reliability. The 944T cars as a whole are heavier even in modestly prepared form, which results in reduced braking performance and cornering, which contributes to driver error. So, when everything gets shaken out, the best prepared 944T's do run strong, but they are not a shoe-in at any given event. As you mentioned, race victories are the result of many variables - We can agree on that.
You write that with the turbo being unrestricted, boost is your friend. While there is some truth to that, but also true is that boost can be the enemy too.
#162
I think it's time that we get back on tarck here and discussthe real issues here. If someone wants to believe with passion that certain engines make a certaian amount of RWHP then let it be.
I am sorry if I offended you in anyway. I do not know of you (Scott) and have never heard of you until this thread. So what, I don't know alot of people in this world. Building these engines is nothing special. Building new parts for them is not either. I am sure there a lot of builders out there that have never built one of these engines that could do a good job. Do they want to is the question. So lets be thankful there are some out there that do and offer some really good parts.
I am all for the delay of the new rules, not for myself, but for others here. If the request is denied, then heads down and lets get to work. We have to focus on the task at hand.
I am sorry if I offended you in anyway. I do not know of you (Scott) and have never heard of you until this thread. So what, I don't know alot of people in this world. Building these engines is nothing special. Building new parts for them is not either. I am sure there a lot of builders out there that have never built one of these engines that could do a good job. Do they want to is the question. So lets be thankful there are some out there that do and offer some really good parts.
I am all for the delay of the new rules, not for myself, but for others here. If the request is denied, then heads down and lets get to work. We have to focus on the task at hand.
#163
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
agreed , as mentioned before a collective effort is necessary to make this happen and it has to be done now ...
#164
Instructor
m42racer,
No offense taken. My response was in jest. (although it may not have read that way)
To be frank, I am not sure much can be done to sway the powers that be. Even before the change came down it was pretty much determined a few years ago that something was going to be done. The behind the scenes negotiating has been ongoing for quite some time. There was a big push last year for a rule change, but PCA decided to hold off so it could do some more homework. So, it is was after much consideration and some debate that these changes were put forth.
Does that mean a delay is not possible? There is only one way to find out, but it will take an overwhelming number of affected racers to act as one and demonstrate that it is unreasonable to ask an entire segment of club racers to change class, re-develop, rebuild, or do whatever they need to do in such a short period of time.
Since this has been a debate for some time, PCA should have addressed these changes no later than mid-year in order to have them in effect for 2008 - Otherwise, I agree the rules should become effective 1/1/09
Either way, those affected have changes to make, now or later.
The timing of 11/15/07 to establish the rules for 2008 seems a bit unreasonable.
No offense taken. My response was in jest. (although it may not have read that way)
To be frank, I am not sure much can be done to sway the powers that be. Even before the change came down it was pretty much determined a few years ago that something was going to be done. The behind the scenes negotiating has been ongoing for quite some time. There was a big push last year for a rule change, but PCA decided to hold off so it could do some more homework. So, it is was after much consideration and some debate that these changes were put forth.
Does that mean a delay is not possible? There is only one way to find out, but it will take an overwhelming number of affected racers to act as one and demonstrate that it is unreasonable to ask an entire segment of club racers to change class, re-develop, rebuild, or do whatever they need to do in such a short period of time.
Since this has been a debate for some time, PCA should have addressed these changes no later than mid-year in order to have them in effect for 2008 - Otherwise, I agree the rules should become effective 1/1/09
Either way, those affected have changes to make, now or later.
The timing of 11/15/07 to establish the rules for 2008 seems a bit unreasonable.
#165
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
I don't think fast lap or qualifing time shows the true potential of a race car, just the true potential of 1 fast lap. The finish postion tels the story best - after all - isen't that the point of racing?