Are 944 Turbos at a Disadvantage in PCA Club Racing?
11-22-2007, 11:04 PM
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Are 944 Turbos at a Disadvantage in PCA Club Racing?
This thread started in David Floyd's thread on page 14 and 15 here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turbo-and-turbo-s-forum/358030-trick-951-s.html
Since this subject is very important and creates strong feelings by many AND we don't want to take over David's thread, I thought it would be good to continue the debate here.
The issue -> Some folks feel that the PCA Club Racing organization does not treat 944s and 944 Turbos fairly. What do you think?
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turbo-and-turbo-s-forum/358030-trick-951-s.html
Since this subject is very important and creates strong feelings by many AND we don't want to take over David's thread, I thought it would be good to continue the debate here.
The issue -> Some folks feel that the PCA Club Racing organization does not treat 944s and 944 Turbos fairly. What do you think?
11-22-2007, 11:30 PM
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11-22-2007, 11:30 PM
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951 's do not have a disadvantage in GT3 , i would say they have an advantage , in the stock classes , maybe not so , but for sure for GT , they have superior PWR over the NA cars , some have seen this and hence the rebirth of 2.1 L-2.5L 911 turbos ..... in GT3 and GT4 .....no disadvantages here . The new 08 rules might change this a bit , we will see.....
11-22-2007, 11:55 PM
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Going into this debate, we all need to realize that it is very difficult to try to find a racing formula to equalize a turbo car against a normally aspirated car. So, to determine if the PCA somehow dislikes 944 Turbos, we need to compare how the PCA would treat a highly developed 944 Turbo against a highly developed 911 Turbo.
Looking at the GT classes, let's run some numbers:
1. A 944 Turbo that weighs 2,200 pounds with a 185 pound driver and a 2.8 liter 2 valve engine would calculate a Performance Index (PI) of 426 which puts it in GT2.
2. A 911 2 valve air cooled turbo that weighs the same and has the same weight driver could only run a 2.65 liter engine and stay in GT2.
Which car do you think has the advantage? I am betting on the 944 Turbo.
For those who are disappointed that the 944 Turbos now have a hard time staying in GT3 because they believe "the 911 friendly PCA crooks kicked them out of the class" is just not a well founded argument. Almost all of the 911s running in the GT3 class have normally aspirated engines. There are many relatively low cost 944 Turbos that don't have too much trouble keeping up with or beating the highly developed 3.4 liter normally aspirated 911s.
Plus, under the old rules, if a 944 Turbo used an engine larger than 2.6 liters, it was sent straight to GT1. Whereas, under the new rules, 944 Turbos can run in GT3 or GT2 or GT1 depending on their Performance Index. This has opened up a whole new realm of possibilities for running 944 Turbos in PCA. This seems to be yet another good thing.
In summary, it appears to me that PCA is treating 944 Turbos quite well.
Jeff
Looking at the GT classes, let's run some numbers:
1. A 944 Turbo that weighs 2,200 pounds with a 185 pound driver and a 2.8 liter 2 valve engine would calculate a Performance Index (PI) of 426 which puts it in GT2.
2. A 911 2 valve air cooled turbo that weighs the same and has the same weight driver could only run a 2.65 liter engine and stay in GT2.
Which car do you think has the advantage? I am betting on the 944 Turbo.
For those who are disappointed that the 944 Turbos now have a hard time staying in GT3 because they believe "the 911 friendly PCA crooks kicked them out of the class" is just not a well founded argument. Almost all of the 911s running in the GT3 class have normally aspirated engines. There are many relatively low cost 944 Turbos that don't have too much trouble keeping up with or beating the highly developed 3.4 liter normally aspirated 911s.
Plus, under the old rules, if a 944 Turbo used an engine larger than 2.6 liters, it was sent straight to GT1. Whereas, under the new rules, 944 Turbos can run in GT3 or GT2 or GT1 depending on their Performance Index. This has opened up a whole new realm of possibilities for running 944 Turbos in PCA. This seems to be yet another good thing.
In summary, it appears to me that PCA is treating 944 Turbos quite well.
Jeff
11-23-2007, 12:48 AM
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Also don't forget that in the GT classes the N/A 911 and 914's enjoy a hefty weight advantage over the normal GT class 944T. I know the majority of the ones I have run with are in the 1800lb to 1900lb range and you aren't getting a 944 that light.
11-23-2007, 01:03 AM
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Jeff,
Agree, with an unrestrictive turbo , the NA cars are still at an disadvantage in GT3. In regards to 911 T VS 944 T the 911 is capable of being faster.....
Landjet,
Yes the 914 's have a weight advantage , but in GT3 trim they are giving up 150- 200 BHP to a 944T...
Agree, with an unrestrictive turbo , the NA cars are still at an disadvantage in GT3. In regards to 911 T VS 944 T the 911 is capable of being faster.....
Landjet,
Yes the 914 's have a weight advantage , but in GT3 trim they are giving up 150- 200 BHP to a 944T...
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11-23-2007, 03:31 AM
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Jeff,
I wish I had the time to respond to your post with my complete thoughts on the subject. Please look for a detailed response over the next couple of days.
That said, I will preface my response by saying that I respectfully, but completely disagree with your findings regarding the new GT rules being 944T friendly.
The rules were designed to take away the perceived advantage that the 944T had in the GT3 class, and I guarantee it will fail to do "exactly" what it was designed to do. It will not move most 944T's into GT2 because most guys with 944T's do not have them stripped down enough to cross the finish line at sub 2740#, nor do they have the power to run up front in GT2. So most ill stay in GT3 and just take on more weight.
So, it is to the demise and/or at the expense of the fair majority of the 944T guys to either stay in class and take on more weight, or completely re-develop their cars to be competitive in a new class. This is the sad reality for many 944T club racers.
On the other end of the spectrum, there's a much smaller but infinitely more serious group of racers that will re-engineer, rebuild, and do whatever it takes, at whatever cost to stay ahead of the curve. Speaking from personal experience I can tell you that I am currently re-developing several 944T cars to remain forces to be reckoned with in GT3, and I am sure there are several others out there doing the same - But, how many guys just don't have the resources, or desire, to completely rebuild their cars to be competitive in GT3, let alone GT2?
It is unlikely that a moderately tuned 2.61L will run up front consistently in GT2, so it would make sense that if you were to run in GT2, you would want to come in at the upper limit of the class. That said, the same holds true for GT3, the only difference is that most of the guys that have been running the moderately modified 2.6L's were not able to run up front under the old rules, let alone if they have to add weight to stay in class.
For the few of the very well funded 944T guys, this rule change means very little. I means that some additional R&D money must be spent to improve in other areas not yet fully exploited. This will result in even faster laps than in the past. We plan to stay in GT3, and we plan to keep running up front, as I am sure Roy Chong plans to do as well. We will search for other areas to improve and take the weight penalty as required.
This one thing I know for sure is that this rule change will hurt WAY more people than it will help - And I seriously think that it will prove to be a horrific failure in the grand scheme of things - Of course, not for the few that it was designed to serve, but for the majority it will negatively affect.
Look at the result of many past GT3 races - You have a couple of really fast 944T's running in the top five, then a bunch of 911 based cars with only a sprinkling of 944T's in the mix of the next 9-12 cars, then the majority of the moderate 944T's trailing up the rear. This is typical at most events I have seen, so I ask, who is this rule change really hurting? The guys in the 944T's already running midfield to the back of the pack, that's who. It does not effect those of us running up front as much as it hurts the guys mid pack down - That is the sad reality.
So, the fix is to barely bump them into GT2 so they won't be a threat there either. It will take a few years for most 944 guys to rebuild an get up to speed in whatever class they decide to run in, but the PCA has left the door open for modifications to the rule change, you can bet that when the undesirables get too fast, the rules will change yet again.
Just think... This is the preface for my thoughts on the subject.
It is not the actual rule changes that feeds my fire, it is the fundamental motives behind them. Like I said, personally, I do not mind the rule change, it affects us very little, if at all - But I sincerely feel for the majority of those that it will negatively affect.
On a very personal note, and in a weird twisted way, I welcome the rule change and embrace it - Not because I think it is fair, not because I think it is needed, but because it gives those that felt disadvantaged everything they wanted - And for that reason alone, it will be a pleasure to run against them under the new rules and hopefully still hand them their back sides.
In signing off for the night, let me give you a short story to think about... (All characters are fictional, any similarities are completely coincidental)
"Billy" used to run in GT4, but he crashes his car and decides to build a new car for club racing. He pours over the rules for weeks and decides he wants to build a brand new front runner in but not in GT4, but in GT3 instead.
Billy sees how competitive GT3 is, and also sees that there are a few REALLY fast 944T's in his class. In fact, they usually run right up front wherever they go. Acknowledging that this group is very fast and competitive, Billy decides that to be competitive and possibly win in GT3 you have to build an early 1970's 911.
Billy is a wrench, he's been working on Porsches for years, so he feels he can build an engine, modify a tub, and tune the car to be a front runner and win his new class.
The following year Billy places in the top three in just about every event he runs in, but never wins. For some reason, Billy feels that since he works on Porsches, and since he feels he has done everything he could to his car, that HE should win. So, instead of looking within to find areas of improvement, Billy decides that the rules for a class that he built his car for are unfair in some way.
Billy canvases to enact a rule change for the following year, but the change gets shot down, so Billy looks for more power and speed. During this time, the front running 944T's do not rest on their laurels, they search for more speed as well. The following year Billy comes out faster than ever! Still running in the top three, but more competitive than the previous year, and even taking a couple of wins - Still Billy feels that the rules are working against him in some way.
Once again, Billy continues his quest for a rule change, pushing harder and using his influence in every way imaginable to get this rule change done for the next season. He forms alliances with like minded people and... Behold, Billy gets his way!
That story is pathetic enough as it is, but how much worse would it be if Billy were on the rules advisory board/committee? What if Billy held a political/motivational position in PCA club racing? How sad would this story be if it were not fictional?
So again, it is not about the rule change itself, it is about the motives behind it that should sour the taste of even the most enthusiastic individuals.
Hope you all enjoyed the short story, I am sure you all know the moral.
Please stay tuned for more...
I wish I had the time to respond to your post with my complete thoughts on the subject. Please look for a detailed response over the next couple of days.
That said, I will preface my response by saying that I respectfully, but completely disagree with your findings regarding the new GT rules being 944T friendly.
The rules were designed to take away the perceived advantage that the 944T had in the GT3 class, and I guarantee it will fail to do "exactly" what it was designed to do. It will not move most 944T's into GT2 because most guys with 944T's do not have them stripped down enough to cross the finish line at sub 2740#, nor do they have the power to run up front in GT2. So most ill stay in GT3 and just take on more weight.
So, it is to the demise and/or at the expense of the fair majority of the 944T guys to either stay in class and take on more weight, or completely re-develop their cars to be competitive in a new class. This is the sad reality for many 944T club racers.
On the other end of the spectrum, there's a much smaller but infinitely more serious group of racers that will re-engineer, rebuild, and do whatever it takes, at whatever cost to stay ahead of the curve. Speaking from personal experience I can tell you that I am currently re-developing several 944T cars to remain forces to be reckoned with in GT3, and I am sure there are several others out there doing the same - But, how many guys just don't have the resources, or desire, to completely rebuild their cars to be competitive in GT3, let alone GT2?
It is unlikely that a moderately tuned 2.61L will run up front consistently in GT2, so it would make sense that if you were to run in GT2, you would want to come in at the upper limit of the class. That said, the same holds true for GT3, the only difference is that most of the guys that have been running the moderately modified 2.6L's were not able to run up front under the old rules, let alone if they have to add weight to stay in class.
For the few of the very well funded 944T guys, this rule change means very little. I means that some additional R&D money must be spent to improve in other areas not yet fully exploited. This will result in even faster laps than in the past. We plan to stay in GT3, and we plan to keep running up front, as I am sure Roy Chong plans to do as well. We will search for other areas to improve and take the weight penalty as required.
This one thing I know for sure is that this rule change will hurt WAY more people than it will help - And I seriously think that it will prove to be a horrific failure in the grand scheme of things - Of course, not for the few that it was designed to serve, but for the majority it will negatively affect.
Look at the result of many past GT3 races - You have a couple of really fast 944T's running in the top five, then a bunch of 911 based cars with only a sprinkling of 944T's in the mix of the next 9-12 cars, then the majority of the moderate 944T's trailing up the rear. This is typical at most events I have seen, so I ask, who is this rule change really hurting? The guys in the 944T's already running midfield to the back of the pack, that's who. It does not effect those of us running up front as much as it hurts the guys mid pack down - That is the sad reality.
So, the fix is to barely bump them into GT2 so they won't be a threat there either. It will take a few years for most 944 guys to rebuild an get up to speed in whatever class they decide to run in, but the PCA has left the door open for modifications to the rule change, you can bet that when the undesirables get too fast, the rules will change yet again.
Just think... This is the preface for my thoughts on the subject.
It is not the actual rule changes that feeds my fire, it is the fundamental motives behind them. Like I said, personally, I do not mind the rule change, it affects us very little, if at all - But I sincerely feel for the majority of those that it will negatively affect.
On a very personal note, and in a weird twisted way, I welcome the rule change and embrace it - Not because I think it is fair, not because I think it is needed, but because it gives those that felt disadvantaged everything they wanted - And for that reason alone, it will be a pleasure to run against them under the new rules and hopefully still hand them their back sides.
In signing off for the night, let me give you a short story to think about... (All characters are fictional, any similarities are completely coincidental)
"Billy" used to run in GT4, but he crashes his car and decides to build a new car for club racing. He pours over the rules for weeks and decides he wants to build a brand new front runner in but not in GT4, but in GT3 instead.
Billy sees how competitive GT3 is, and also sees that there are a few REALLY fast 944T's in his class. In fact, they usually run right up front wherever they go. Acknowledging that this group is very fast and competitive, Billy decides that to be competitive and possibly win in GT3 you have to build an early 1970's 911.
Billy is a wrench, he's been working on Porsches for years, so he feels he can build an engine, modify a tub, and tune the car to be a front runner and win his new class.
The following year Billy places in the top three in just about every event he runs in, but never wins. For some reason, Billy feels that since he works on Porsches, and since he feels he has done everything he could to his car, that HE should win. So, instead of looking within to find areas of improvement, Billy decides that the rules for a class that he built his car for are unfair in some way.
Billy canvases to enact a rule change for the following year, but the change gets shot down, so Billy looks for more power and speed. During this time, the front running 944T's do not rest on their laurels, they search for more speed as well. The following year Billy comes out faster than ever! Still running in the top three, but more competitive than the previous year, and even taking a couple of wins - Still Billy feels that the rules are working against him in some way.
Once again, Billy continues his quest for a rule change, pushing harder and using his influence in every way imaginable to get this rule change done for the next season. He forms alliances with like minded people and... Behold, Billy gets his way!
That story is pathetic enough as it is, but how much worse would it be if Billy were on the rules advisory board/committee? What if Billy held a political/motivational position in PCA club racing? How sad would this story be if it were not fictional?
So again, it is not about the rule change itself, it is about the motives behind it that should sour the taste of even the most enthusiastic individuals.
Hope you all enjoyed the short story, I am sure you all know the moral.
Please stay tuned for more...
11-23-2007, 05:30 AM
#9
Rennlist Member
Scott,
Is it not possible that Billy might also run a 951 and after years of campaigning at the mid to rear of the field push for some rule changes to even up the proceedings? Do you feel in general that the powerbrokers are of the rear engined brethren and therefore this particular Billy is less likely to get satisfaction? Ultimately is there an underlying issue with the perception that the 951 is not and never will be a 'real' Porsche? This is the basis for perception, real or otherwise, of the inherent inequity of racing a Porsche at this level it would seem.
Speaking as an outsider I would say that firstly I believe it's true, and not just mutually exclusive to the USA. However you are lucky on another level that you have such a large population as to afford you the ability for racing these cars at all in a sanctioned series. Not a chance down here.
I don't think you're ever going to have any rules advantage by racing a front engined Porsche against rear engined models. It would seem that if you race an old air cooled 911 from the 60's, 70's, or 80's that you are resurrecting a dream and carrying on a legacy. If you do the same with a front engined Porsche (and worse, succeeding) you are thrusting a distasteful aberration in the face of the 'real' Porsche fraternity.
Patrick
Is it not possible that Billy might also run a 951 and after years of campaigning at the mid to rear of the field push for some rule changes to even up the proceedings? Do you feel in general that the powerbrokers are of the rear engined brethren and therefore this particular Billy is less likely to get satisfaction? Ultimately is there an underlying issue with the perception that the 951 is not and never will be a 'real' Porsche? This is the basis for perception, real or otherwise, of the inherent inequity of racing a Porsche at this level it would seem.
Speaking as an outsider I would say that firstly I believe it's true, and not just mutually exclusive to the USA. However you are lucky on another level that you have such a large population as to afford you the ability for racing these cars at all in a sanctioned series. Not a chance down here.
I don't think you're ever going to have any rules advantage by racing a front engined Porsche against rear engined models. It would seem that if you race an old air cooled 911 from the 60's, 70's, or 80's that you are resurrecting a dream and carrying on a legacy. If you do the same with a front engined Porsche (and worse, succeeding) you are thrusting a distasteful aberration in the face of the 'real' Porsche fraternity.
Patrick
11-23-2007, 05:48 AM
#11
Rennlist Member
Out of curiosity what class do the 996/997 GT3's run in? Don't seem to see these and 951's on the track together.
11-23-2007, 05:57 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
Who tests the power of the turbo cars? I s'pose they could have a dyno at the track, wire up the engine figuratively and load whatever ballast they deemed fair?
Remote control ebc's are coming heheheh
Remote control ebc's are coming heheheh
11-23-2007, 06:21 AM
#14
Nordschleife Master
True, but who checks the displacement?
In Sweden the Porsche Club Schweden's cup is based on power to ratio. If a car is obviously faster it will be checked.
In Sweden the Porsche Club Schweden's cup is based on power to ratio. If a car is obviously faster it will be checked.
11-23-2007, 06:40 AM
#15
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yes, our rules were changed to match the swedish power vs weight and class' are now identical, they have dynos at the track, and cars can be pulled at any time.. we all ofcourse know its easy to cheat with a turbocar, but here its more of a gentlemans sport, new rules dictates I can have aprox 383RWHP, vs 369RWHP if I had ABS.