Gain 100HP with an intake manifold change?? - Cross post from Ferrari Chat
03-25-2016, 02:50 PM
#361
Rennlist Member
Mark:
Since you've never purchased anything from me...you would have no way of knowing the following:
Everything I make has been carefully engineered and tested. It comes complete with instructions and the pieces required for installation.
In short: It fits and it works.
I don't cobble anything together and send it off, hoping that the purchaser can make it fit and work. (Did you follow Sean, in Texas, trying to install one of Carl's supercharger kits and intercooler?)
I don't make up power claims that no one could ever achieve. I deal in super conservative power output claims....something that anyone, anywhere can duplicate at a minimum. (Did you follow the thread about my '85/'86 headers where I tried to duplicate Porken's results from his '85/'86 chips.....which I still can not even get close to duplicating...two years and a half a dozen installs later?)
I don't make cr@p or sell bullsh!t. I make and sell pieces of automotive art.
I make only the very best stuff that I can create. What I make is not for everyone....I understand and actually appreciate that. Fortunately, there's a very large group of 928 people who do want the very best they can buy.....something that they know will fit and will work as promised.
Those are my clientele.
Since you've never purchased anything from me...you would have no way of knowing the following:
Everything I make has been carefully engineered and tested. It comes complete with instructions and the pieces required for installation.
In short: It fits and it works.
I don't cobble anything together and send it off, hoping that the purchaser can make it fit and work. (Did you follow Sean, in Texas, trying to install one of Carl's supercharger kits and intercooler?)
I don't make up power claims that no one could ever achieve. I deal in super conservative power output claims....something that anyone, anywhere can duplicate at a minimum. (Did you follow the thread about my '85/'86 headers where I tried to duplicate Porken's results from his '85/'86 chips.....which I still can not even get close to duplicating...two years and a half a dozen installs later?)
I don't make cr@p or sell bullsh!t. I make and sell pieces of automotive art.
I make only the very best stuff that I can create. What I make is not for everyone....I understand and actually appreciate that. Fortunately, there's a very large group of 928 people who do want the very best they can buy.....something that they know will fit and will work as promised.
Those are my clientele.
and i understand, you are the gold standard . (as hard as it is to admit, i think you do make work of art components and great engine builds!
YOU DONT REPRESENT the entire list though! not all of us can afford a GB engine for $ 40-60k. remember, and PLEASE dont take this out of context, but this list is made up of folks that want the best wheel cleaner to those that want to make a flat crank for the 928! Its no secret what group i represent and try and help.. so, dont hate me because of my love affair and track record with the car! You have been entertaining and helpful over the years and somehow we got derailed during racing, oiling and INT plate discussions. i appreciate the rod off set angle discusions... you helping me with my radiaotor leaks in the side tanks, and a host of other topics... I will always be grateful for the help and how it helped others on the list.
So, as far as this modification goes. I know very little of what it takes to build something custom, but i have some sound ideas. go shoot them down.. if they are not sound, i want to know why. remember many said the things i did when i first modified my 928, that it would NEVER work.. even published , acknowledged experts , like probst. But, i love using sound logic and small changes to prove others wrong to the benefit of the 928 community. all those thigns i did WORKED and have worked welll over the years. so dont hate me because im not an artist. embrace the bottom feeders of the craft, that get the job done and push these cars to the limit against all odds.
off soap box.
03-25-2016, 02:54 PM
#362
I'd love to know what Kiborts GP/Specialist has prescribed for him medication wise.
03-25-2016, 02:55 PM
#363
Rennlist Member
The 044 pump is a great piece of hardware. It actually flows way more than any NA 928 will need. The extra output of this pump has to go somwhere, so a properly designed return system is required. A restriction in the return, say an improperly sized fuel pressure regulator, non radiused or undersized fittings create an impediment to flow. This will cause the pump to operate at a higher pressure and pull more current. Both of these add heat to the fuel, which can cause all sorts of issues.
A proper return system will allow the fuel to return back to the tank (through the cooler) and keep things where they need to be. Sizing the pump to the engine also solves this problem as well. in a situation like a "hot" 5L, the 044 may not be the best selection, perhaps the 040 would be a better fit.
Like everything with something complex as an intake manifold revision, there are lots of factors you really have to consider, fuel being one of them.
The factory rails are not really a poor design, they work well, and flow plenty. They are however "sculpted" around the factory manifold, and so changing that shape quickly makes the attached plumbing get in the way. The mounting tabs also will be hard to re-use in a symmetrical intake design - there is an illustration of this in my lower intake manifold thread. In the end, trying to reuse the stock rails will probably require trimming the hard lines and braising/soldering new fittings and relocating the mounts. At that point, its just easier to use new rails designed for purpose. In my measurement of several sets of factory rails, I also found variance in the tolerances and locations, and this could cause a problem with a precision machined part. The factory intake manifold has some very sloppy tolerances too, one reason for the massive over-sized injector o-rings and huge injector bores.... it allows for high axial misalignment of the injectors.
In the end, if the goal is to improve things, its necessary to go the extra mile and do it right - consider the project as a whole and not a sum of many parts.
A proper return system will allow the fuel to return back to the tank (through the cooler) and keep things where they need to be. Sizing the pump to the engine also solves this problem as well. in a situation like a "hot" 5L, the 044 may not be the best selection, perhaps the 040 would be a better fit.
Like everything with something complex as an intake manifold revision, there are lots of factors you really have to consider, fuel being one of them.
The factory rails are not really a poor design, they work well, and flow plenty. They are however "sculpted" around the factory manifold, and so changing that shape quickly makes the attached plumbing get in the way. The mounting tabs also will be hard to re-use in a symmetrical intake design - there is an illustration of this in my lower intake manifold thread. In the end, trying to reuse the stock rails will probably require trimming the hard lines and braising/soldering new fittings and relocating the mounts. At that point, its just easier to use new rails designed for purpose. In my measurement of several sets of factory rails, I also found variance in the tolerances and locations, and this could cause a problem with a precision machined part. The factory intake manifold has some very sloppy tolerances too, one reason for the massive over-sized injector o-rings and huge injector bores.... it allows for high axial misalignment of the injectors.
In the end, if the goal is to improve things, its necessary to go the extra mile and do it right - consider the project as a whole and not a sum of many parts.
03-25-2016, 02:56 PM
#364
Rennlist Member
again, the stock throttle body is 88mm so, i dont think that is the issue. just use an 85 throttle body or euro 85 4.7 liter at 83mm. it has the TBS switch on it, and by the way, the TPS switch is not needed at idle. and does the S4 have a mid point engagment for TPS for richness or is it just at WOT? i forgot.
thats easy stuff anyway.
03-25-2016, 02:58 PM
#365
Rennlist Member
03-25-2016, 03:07 PM
#366
Rennlist Member
Back when Andy Keel was pondering how to fit the Jaguar Supercharger onto the 928 he was in the office at 928 International and I actually showed him what the 930 turbo manifold looked like and even had the short phenolic tiny port adapter......that was his light bulb moment !! That lead to the "pancake" intake. While the first iterations were rather crude it did prove that it WORKED !! was it optimal ? probably NOT but it WORKED.
again greg, you must be busy to not be able to read all posts.. but it was 25-30hp on the stock S4, 50-60 on the slightly modified , and 50-60 on a anemic stroker like mine. again, joe fan and anderson never really made 520hp it was noise at the end o f the dyno.. more like 505hp and thats closer to 85hp gain for a bolt on adder.
Jim, are you sure you couldn't use some off-the-shelf parts from a Mustang? That should bring the costs down to maybe $4k? Seems like all this work has been done before, just needs to be adapted to fit the small-block Ford pieces to our big-block 928 engines. They are about the same displacement, so maybe just a few adapter pieces would get it all to work.
....
....
03-25-2016, 03:11 PM
#367
Rennlist Member
An 80mm throttle is plenty large enough for a hot 5.0l, and 90mm plenty for a stroker. The factory throttle is not a restriction in the system. The two "ports" on the throttle casting have an approximate area of 8898mm^2 which equates to approximately a single 106mm orifice. Reusing the throttle certainly is possible with a single large plenum system. It is challenging though, retaining the MAF in that location, with a flat floor plenum. Curvature of the floor will be required.
Its not the easiest part to work around, but there is no "need" to replace it. In the end, its a toss-up to whether it saves money, as the fabrication to save it may exceed the cost of new more conventional throttle.
Its not the easiest part to work around, but there is no "need" to replace it. In the end, its a toss-up to whether it saves money, as the fabrication to save it may exceed the cost of new more conventional throttle.
03-25-2016, 03:13 PM
#368
Rennlist Member
An 80mm throttle is plenty large enough for a hot 5.0l, and 90mm plenty for a stroker. The factory throttle is not a restriction in the system. The two "ports" on the throttle casting have an approximate area of 8898mm^2 which equates to approximately a single 106mm orifice. Reusing the throttle certainly is possible with a single large plenum system. It is challenging though retaining the MAF in that location with a flat floor plenum curvature in the floor will be required.
Its not the easiest part to work around, but there is no "need" to replace it. In the end, its a toss-up to whether it saves money, as the fabrication to save it may exceed the cost of new more conventional throttle.
Its not the easiest part to work around, but there is no "need" to replace it. In the end, its a toss-up to whether it saves money, as the fabrication to save it may exceed the cost of new more conventional throttle.
does anyone have a picture of the S4 lower intake "U" and TB combo?
this drawing shows HUGE promise! its huge. its has big outlets for the plennum box, it incorporates the throttle body and MAF, thus air filter system too.
bolt this thing to the bottom of carl's boxes and i think we have something!
03-25-2016, 03:26 PM
#371
Rennlist Member
03-25-2016, 03:29 PM
#372
Rennlist Member
well, as i remember it, the TB is 3.5" and thats 88mm, so much to work with. euros are 3.3" , which is 85mm. TBs are there and available from our cars.
does anyone have a picture of the S4 lower intake "U" and TB combo?
this drawing shows HUGE promise! its huge. its has big outlets for the plennum box, it incorporates the throttle body and MAF, thus air filter system too.
bolt this thing to the bottom of carl's boxes and i think we have something!
does anyone have a picture of the S4 lower intake "U" and TB combo?
this drawing shows HUGE promise! its huge. its has big outlets for the plennum box, it incorporates the throttle body and MAF, thus air filter system too.
bolt this thing to the bottom of carl's boxes and i think we have something!
So here is the problem with that theory, it wont fit between Carl's intake stubs. The other issue is that all the plumbing that would would want to save will require the throttle to be located in its original position, which is about 4" lower than the floor of your proposed plenum. You would have to fabricate a duct that would connect those ports in the throttle casting up to the bottom of your plenum. Is it possible, sure. Is it going to be a pain to make that part, and expensive, absolutely.
This is why I strongly, and respectfully, suggest you do some sketches with dimensions so you can see these problems with the concept. There are plenty of ways to make a manifold, and plenty of ways to get it to work, but this one is physically impossible to make as proposed in your post.
03-25-2016, 03:31 PM
#373
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Originally Posted by Mongo
90% of it is cluster f**king actually.
That's one reason I cut down on posting here. Others include cherishing the moments enjoying my fleet, family, and friends.
I see that many things here are still the same, and I haven't missed much, other than the continuous drama.
Best regards,
03-25-2016, 03:45 PM
#374
Rennlist Member
So here is the problem with that theory, it wont fit between Carl's intake stubs. The other issue is that all the plumbing that would would want to save will require the throttle to be located in its original position, which is about 4" lower than the floor of your proposed plenum. You would have to fabricate a duct that would connect those ports in the throttle casting up to the bottom of your plenum. Is it possible, sure. Is it going to be a pain to make that part, and expensive, absolutely.
This is why I strongly, and respectfully, suggest you do some sketches with dimensions so you can see these problems with the concept. There are plenty of ways to make a manifold, and plenty of ways to get it to work, but this one is physically impossible to make as proposed in your post.
This is why I strongly, and respectfully, suggest you do some sketches with dimensions so you can see these problems with the concept. There are plenty of ways to make a manifold, and plenty of ways to get it to work, but this one is physically impossible to make as proposed in your post.
maybe the 968 guys have a maifold that is more vertical and allows for the room needed to put the stock TB and "U" below a fabricated box. then, the fabricated box is the only thing custom here. thats a LOT different than greg brown individually welding runners wtih $1000s of dollars of design and fab work
that idea of mine is just the first pass. im sure there is a plennum out there that alows for a rear mounted TB , MAF and filter. heck, maybe it fits in the entire base of windshield area where the AC stuff is. (this would limit the design to race only , in otherwords)
your not scaring me yet, but you bring up good points. now, we just need to mock something up
03-25-2016, 04:00 PM
#375
Rennlist Member
Out of curiosity, what would you pay for a single plenum intake manifold? The design is easy, It would probably take me less than 4 hours starting from the models I already have. If that's all you want, and you don't want to go through lots of design revisions, I can make it. I make no claims that it will give you any better performance, but if that's what you want, and you are willing to pay for it up front, I can have one made in the next several weeks.
I do design and engineering on the side. If you want to hire me to make what you want, it can happen very quickly. Of course actually doing flow analysis, and complex modeling is a completely different story, but just a single-plenum manifold with arbitrary runner lengths... thats no problem. I can give you my paypal information today, and have the manufacturing files ready to go before Monday.
I do design and engineering on the side. If you want to hire me to make what you want, it can happen very quickly. Of course actually doing flow analysis, and complex modeling is a completely different story, but just a single-plenum manifold with arbitrary runner lengths... thats no problem. I can give you my paypal information today, and have the manufacturing files ready to go before Monday.