Gain 100HP with an intake manifold change?? - Cross post from Ferrari Chat
03-25-2016, 12:01 PM
#346
Rennlist Member
Greg's manifold will be a really nice piece. I happen to have an inside scoop on lots of the design features, and it will be about as far as you can go with a fabricated manifold. Lots of thought have gone into just about every part... its amazing how many vendors, suppliers, and manufacturers its going to take to make this a reality.
I have looked at doing the manifolds myself in the past. Its not so much a matter of design challenge, but it is expensive to do it right. My basic raw costs were going to be well into the $17k range to produce just the initial small batch of the manifolds (no rails, throttle, hardware... etc). You cant run any of these parts in small numbers.
For those that want a cheap manifold, there are the parts to assemble them yourself, but be prepared to spend a lot of time evaluating all the ancillary components. The physical manifold is just one small part. You have to think about plumbing (AIC, breather, vacuum), fuel system (stock rails wont likely work without extensive modification), throttle actuation, throttle position switch adapter, air filtration.... theres a lot of upstream and downstream costs that are not obvious until you sit down and plan the entire project.
I highly encourage others to try the project. We all learn more when people try new directions. However, I do think that the "trying" part is severely lacking in this thread. I see lots of typing, but almost no constructive posts. If you want a manifold, and are willing to invest the time and money, post some dimensional drawings, some sketches, some valid part numbers for the support parts you plan on using. I have been very transparent in my lower manifold design thread about how I would implement those parts, listed cost effective injectors that match our engines well, and made available affordable components (fuel rails and flanges) previously not available to the community. It took me over a year to actually sell the first batch. There are lots of talented, dedicated people in this community. Support these people, and the parts will come.
Now get out in the garage, and start measuring engines, do some math, get some solid design requirements, and start planning. You don't have to be a fabricator, make your plenum out of posterboard with scissors and tape, its a perfect template for later. Use heater hose with a stiff wire attached with tape to simulate your runners so you can make a bend table. If you can mock it up, then you can figure out what it will take to make it functional.
I have looked at doing the manifolds myself in the past. Its not so much a matter of design challenge, but it is expensive to do it right. My basic raw costs were going to be well into the $17k range to produce just the initial small batch of the manifolds (no rails, throttle, hardware... etc). You cant run any of these parts in small numbers.
For those that want a cheap manifold, there are the parts to assemble them yourself, but be prepared to spend a lot of time evaluating all the ancillary components. The physical manifold is just one small part. You have to think about plumbing (AIC, breather, vacuum), fuel system (stock rails wont likely work without extensive modification), throttle actuation, throttle position switch adapter, air filtration.... theres a lot of upstream and downstream costs that are not obvious until you sit down and plan the entire project.
I highly encourage others to try the project. We all learn more when people try new directions. However, I do think that the "trying" part is severely lacking in this thread. I see lots of typing, but almost no constructive posts. If you want a manifold, and are willing to invest the time and money, post some dimensional drawings, some sketches, some valid part numbers for the support parts you plan on using. I have been very transparent in my lower manifold design thread about how I would implement those parts, listed cost effective injectors that match our engines well, and made available affordable components (fuel rails and flanges) previously not available to the community. It took me over a year to actually sell the first batch. There are lots of talented, dedicated people in this community. Support these people, and the parts will come.
Now get out in the garage, and start measuring engines, do some math, get some solid design requirements, and start planning. You don't have to be a fabricator, make your plenum out of posterboard with scissors and tape, its a perfect template for later. Use heater hose with a stiff wire attached with tape to simulate your runners so you can make a bend table. If you can mock it up, then you can figure out what it will take to make it functional.
03-25-2016, 12:07 PM
#347
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Mongo and Kibort at it again, time to put your keyboards down and either get your wallets out and/or start getting your hands dirty for a change. This bench racing BS that the two of you is doing needs to be physically built by YOU becuase neither of you have or will have the money to commission it or find someone that will put their name behind your "designs".
Edit: Was typing the same time as Hans.
Edit: Was typing the same time as Hans.
03-25-2016, 12:07 PM
#348
Nordschleife Master
Interesting. It'd be very practical (doable and cheap) to take an early intake spider, shorten the legs and widen the plenum. People have done some very interesting work in head porting as well. Add port-matching, too.
So if the length from plenum to valve is ~16" then the resonance is 4700rpm. I see 4400 on my dyno runs. If it was at 5500rpm that'd be better so add 1.5" to each side of the plenum. A plastic or composite unit would look pretty cool.
So if the length from plenum to valve is ~16" then the resonance is 4700rpm. I see 4400 on my dyno runs. If it was at 5500rpm that'd be better so add 1.5" to each side of the plenum. A plastic or composite unit would look pretty cool.
I added this a while back with zero response. It'd work for the older cars. Maybe not a huge power increase but it'd raise the torque peak RPM and help balance exhaust mods.
A step up would be shortening the legs, welding on bell-mouths and putting a sheet-metal plenum around it all. With the legs being their own flanges and separate parts already there's an easier path to intake mods than for the later cars.
03-25-2016, 12:17 PM
#349
My summer project is to do a ITB set up for my 16v. lining up and making lists of all the parts and systems needed to make that work will be insane. But I'm going to do it. Yes it sure is going to cost me. its it a dumb idea for the money/time=HP output ? for sure.
And i will share that adventure when i have some parts in hand.
And i will share that adventure when i have some parts in hand.
03-25-2016, 12:49 PM
#350
Former Sponsor
Greg's manifold will be a really nice piece. I happen to have an inside scoop on lots of the design features, and it will be about as far as you can go with a fabricated manifold. Lots of thought have gone into just about every part... its amazing how many vendors, suppliers, and manufacturers its going to take to make this a reality.
I have looked at doing the manifolds myself in the past. Its not so much a matter of design challenge, but it is expensive to do it right. My basic raw costs were going to be well into the $17k range to produce just the initial small batch of the manifolds (no rails, throttle, hardware... etc). You cant run any of these parts in small numbers.
For those that want a cheap manifold, there are the parts to assemble them yourself, but be prepared to spend a lot of time evaluating all the ancillary components. The physical manifold is just one small part. You have to think about plumbing (AIC, breather, vacuum), fuel system (stock rails wont likely work without extensive modification), throttle actuation, throttle position switch adapter, air filtration.... theres a lot of upstream and downstream costs that are not obvious until you sit down and plan the entire project.
I highly encourage others to try the project. We all learn more when people try new directions. However, I do think that the "trying" part is severely lacking in this thread. I see lots of typing, but almost no constructive posts. If you want a manifold, and are willing to invest the time and money, post some dimensional drawings, some sketches, some valid part numbers for the support parts you plan on using. I have been very transparent in my lower manifold design thread about how I would implement those parts, listed cost effective injectors that match our engines well, and made available affordable components (fuel rails and flanges) previously not available to the community. It took me over a year to actually sell the first batch. There are lots of talented, dedicated people in this community. Support these people, and the parts will come.
Now get out in the garage, and start measuring engines, do some math, get some solid design requirements, and start planning. You don't have to be a fabricator, make your plenum out of posterboard with scissors and tape, its a perfect template for later. Use heater hose with a stiff wire attached with tape to simulate your runners so you can make a bend table. If you can mock it up, then you can figure out what it will take to make it functional.
I have looked at doing the manifolds myself in the past. Its not so much a matter of design challenge, but it is expensive to do it right. My basic raw costs were going to be well into the $17k range to produce just the initial small batch of the manifolds (no rails, throttle, hardware... etc). You cant run any of these parts in small numbers.
For those that want a cheap manifold, there are the parts to assemble them yourself, but be prepared to spend a lot of time evaluating all the ancillary components. The physical manifold is just one small part. You have to think about plumbing (AIC, breather, vacuum), fuel system (stock rails wont likely work without extensive modification), throttle actuation, throttle position switch adapter, air filtration.... theres a lot of upstream and downstream costs that are not obvious until you sit down and plan the entire project.
I highly encourage others to try the project. We all learn more when people try new directions. However, I do think that the "trying" part is severely lacking in this thread. I see lots of typing, but almost no constructive posts. If you want a manifold, and are willing to invest the time and money, post some dimensional drawings, some sketches, some valid part numbers for the support parts you plan on using. I have been very transparent in my lower manifold design thread about how I would implement those parts, listed cost effective injectors that match our engines well, and made available affordable components (fuel rails and flanges) previously not available to the community. It took me over a year to actually sell the first batch. There are lots of talented, dedicated people in this community. Support these people, and the parts will come.
Now get out in the garage, and start measuring engines, do some math, get some solid design requirements, and start planning. You don't have to be a fabricator, make your plenum out of posterboard with scissors and tape, its a perfect template for later. Use heater hose with a stiff wire attached with tape to simulate your runners so you can make a bend table. If you can mock it up, then you can figure out what it will take to make it functional.
At this point, this manifold is a joint effort, with Hans being the design team leader. Sure, I've got basic design stuff in a prototype stage.
And he will work with me and change anything I want changed. And I've got final design approval responsibility. However, his ideas and grasp of the intraction of the various pieces blows me away.
Truthfully, it's a very rare person who out thinks me....but he comes up with stuff every single day that blows me away.
Today, it's finding a pressure regulator that can deal with the volume of the 044 fuel pump delivery rate, when the engine isn't using huge amounts of fuel....I would have only considered that, once it raised its ugly head!
In short, while it may feed the ego to think of this effort as "my" manifold, nothing can be further from the truth. The end product will be possible only because of Hans and his visions and ability.
He's an amazing talent!
03-25-2016, 01:01 PM
#351
Official Bay Area Patriot
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
Mongo and Kibort at it again, time to put your keyboards down and either get your wallets out and/or start getting your hands dirty for a change. This bench racing BS that the two of you is doing needs to be physically built by YOU because neither of you have or will have the money to commission it or find someone that will put their name behind your "designs".
Edit: Was typing the same time as Hans.
Edit: Was typing the same time as Hans.
03-25-2016, 01:43 PM
#352
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
...........
I highly encourage others to try the project. We all learn more when people try new directions. .......
Now get out in the garage, and start measuring engines, do some math, get some solid design requirements, and start planning. You don't have to be a fabricator, make your plenum out of posterboard with scissors and tape, its a perfect template for later. Use heater hose with a stiff wire attached with tape to simulate your runners so you can make a bend table. If you can mock it up, then you can figure out what it will take to make it functional.
I highly encourage others to try the project. We all learn more when people try new directions. .......
Now get out in the garage, and start measuring engines, do some math, get some solid design requirements, and start planning. You don't have to be a fabricator, make your plenum out of posterboard with scissors and tape, its a perfect template for later. Use heater hose with a stiff wire attached with tape to simulate your runners so you can make a bend table. If you can mock it up, then you can figure out what it will take to make it functional.
03-25-2016, 01:45 PM
#353
Do you need to borrow a scrub brush to get the sand out of your vagina this morning again? Tell you what. Kibort can do whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to participate in the effort and can source it for mass production and drop 5 figures into the tooling, he can go ahead. I don't recall 'bench racing' my builds either, even in high school and college when I was dropping Suzuki ITBs in Integras and getting paid to do it for the gains the cars made when tuned right. But nevermind that now since you assume some of us on here have to bow our heads to a bitter man such as you when you are on your 'off' days. I will continue to give advice as I read it in the books sitting in my library to those who can put it to good use.
03-25-2016, 01:55 PM
#354
Official Bay Area Patriot
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
03-25-2016, 02:23 PM
#355
Rennlist Member
Mongo and Kibort at it again, time to put your keyboards down and either get your wallets out and/or start getting your hands dirty for a change. This bench racing BS that the two of you is doing needs to be physically built by YOU becuase neither of you have or will have the money to commission it or find someone that will put their name behind your "designs".
Edit: Was typing the same time as Hans.
Edit: Was typing the same time as Hans.
Last time i looked i was the ONLY one racing the 928 serously. and have fixed more things on the 928 that is humanly possible, with the help of this list by the way.
as far as my ability to build one. sure, im not the scientist here. But, i can put the thing on and know what is needed to be done to keep the engine safe, as i have for the last 30 years against all odds from guys like you. how many engines have you built for yourself? for others? how many races have you run? you get into a D--K measuring contest with me and you will lose on all counts.
03-25-2016, 02:39 PM
#357
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
......Last time i looked i was the ONLY one racing the 928 serously. and have fixed more things on the 928 that is humanly possible, ....as far as my ability to build one. sure, im not the scientist here. ........ you get into a D--K measuring contest with me and you will lose on all counts.
Sure it takes an ego to get on track but at some point it is a bit beyond anything healthy.....
03-25-2016, 02:40 PM
#358
Nordschleife Master
03-25-2016, 02:42 PM
#359
Rennlist Member
Hans is amazing to work with. His attention to details and ability to see the whole picture is uncanny.
At this point, this manifold is a joint effort, with Hans being the design team leader. Sure, I've got basic design stuff in a prototype stage.
And he will work with me and change anything I want changed. And I've got final design approval responsibility. However, his ideas and grasp of the intraction of the various pieces blows me away.
Truthfully, it's a very rare person who out thinks me....but he comes up with stuff every single day that blows me away.
Today, it's finding a pressure regulator that can deal with the volume of the 044 fuel pump delivery rate, when the engine isn't using huge amounts of fuel....I would have only considered that, once it raised its ugly head!
In short, while it may feed the ego to think of this effort as "my" manifold, nothing can be further from the truth. The end product will be possible only because of Hans and his visions and ability.
He's an amazing talent!
At this point, this manifold is a joint effort, with Hans being the design team leader. Sure, I've got basic design stuff in a prototype stage.
And he will work with me and change anything I want changed. And I've got final design approval responsibility. However, his ideas and grasp of the intraction of the various pieces blows me away.
Truthfully, it's a very rare person who out thinks me....but he comes up with stuff every single day that blows me away.
Today, it's finding a pressure regulator that can deal with the volume of the 044 fuel pump delivery rate, when the engine isn't using huge amounts of fuel....I would have only considered that, once it raised its ugly head!
In short, while it may feed the ego to think of this effort as "my" manifold, nothing can be further from the truth. The end product will be possible only because of Hans and his visions and ability.
He's an amazing talent!
thats interesting.... what is the problem of the 044 pump and why is that a concern? isnt it a power related situation? seems the pump has had no issues running 335rwhp at 70psi or 375rwhp /420rwt with 37psi. by just rough calculations, why couldnt the pump handle what is expected from the 50-75hp gain on a stock 928S4.. after all, its just matching the mass flow of the air and it doesnt know if its a 6.5 liter or has pressure drop reductions on a S4 intake that gives the same flow density, right?
also, what is the problem with our fuel rails.. isnt there a way to use them on a after market lower intake manifold?
obviously, there were ALL these changes with Mark and Joes effots with their CF intake. they even were bridging the plenums with what looked like a garden hose... mafs made from 4" pvc pipe, merge pipes made from sewer drains, etc. it ran fab!
the failure was when things cracked and it went lean, not that the 044 pump was at fault, or was there an upgrade there too. i dont remember.