Gain 100HP with an intake manifold change?? - Cross post from Ferrari Chat
03-25-2016, 04:02 PM
#376
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Hans reality has no place in the latest chapter of our Don Quixote's rendition of the "Impossible Dream". Funny thing is you can pretty much take any of Kibort's posts and put them on any or all of the threads mix and match with no real differences. The overwhelming use of the pronoun I pretty much sums it up until the most recent appearance of we, as in the royal we. Interesting progression
03-25-2016, 04:11 PM
#377
Rennlist Member
Hans reality has no place in the latest chapter of our Don Quixote's rendition of the "Impossible Dream". Funny thing is you can pretty much take any of Kibort's posts and put them on any or all of the threads mix and match with no real differences. The overwhelming use of the pronoun I pretty much sums it up until the most recent appearance of we, as in the royal we. Interesting progression
Jim, success in life is to dream big..... that's served me well in life. you might want to lighten up a bit! dreams come true and this thing, project, whatever, is NOT rocket science.
you want a REAL easy solution. just use ITBs and control the engine with motec.
carl has it all. just put a few foam filters over each runner and you are done!
an Jim.... why dont you make an consorted effort to contribute here, rather than put people down. or is that how you feel better?
as for impossible dreams............... remember, making the 5 liter euro 2 valve, was supposed to be impossible, using euro cams on an 84, the AFM could not support 100hp gains with only a fuel reg, you cant space out brakes with a machined washer and use GTS rotors, you cant use cyanne rotors on a 84 928, you cant put assembly lube on the piston rings , even diluted with oil. you cant use that surface quality of the heads (holbert stroker build), you cant use that cosmetic gasket and not trim the tabs, you cant replace just the wheel bearing and not the inner race, or it will last 100miles and explode., you cant accidentally hone the 4.7 euro block ("its junk" and it wasnt) , you cant use the conti timing belt, the shifter arms cant get out of adjustment on the S4 trannie, you cant make 315s fit on the front of the 928, you cant use a bat to make a nice roll job and fit bigger tires, you cant race the 928 without accusump, breathers, crank scraper, oil baffle, pan spacer, newer oil pick up, etc etc etc. and the last one (but not least)...(and not last really).... no 928 has ever survived faster than a 1:32 at willow with stock oil components. your car cant break 1:40 at laguna at that hp level....on an on and on!
Dream big Jim.. and these are not even dreams. they are just ideas!
I do think the low cost intake is a "Dream" and might even be a big dream, but nothing is impossible if you put your mind to it.
Last edited by mark kibort; 03-25-2016 at 04:30 PM.
03-25-2016, 04:46 PM
#378
Former Sponsor
thats interesting.... what is the problem of the 044 pump and why is that a concern? isnt it a power related situation? seems the pump has had no issues running 335rwhp at 70psi or 375rwhp /420rwt with 37psi. by just rough calculations, why couldnt the pump handle what is expected from the 50-75hp gain on a stock 928S4.. after all, its just matching the mass flow of the air and it doesnt know if its a 6.5 liter or has pressure drop reductions on a S4 intake that gives the same flow density, right?
also, what is the problem with our fuel rails.. isnt there a way to use them on a after market lower intake manifold?
obviously, there were ALL these changes with Mark and Joes effots with their CF intake. they even were bridging the plenums with what looked like a garden hose... mafs made from 4" pvc pipe, merge pipes made from sewer drains, etc. it ran fab!
the failure was when things cracked and it went lean, not that the 044 pump was at fault, or was there an upgrade there too. i dont remember.
also, what is the problem with our fuel rails.. isnt there a way to use them on a after market lower intake manifold?
obviously, there were ALL these changes with Mark and Joes effots with their CF intake. they even were bridging the plenums with what looked like a garden hose... mafs made from 4" pvc pipe, merge pipes made from sewer drains, etc. it ran fab!
the failure was when things cracked and it went lean, not that the 044 pump was at fault, or was there an upgrade there too. i dont remember.
If the pump delivers 320 liters/hour and the regulator only returns 200 liters/hour....if you aren't actively using the other 120 liters/hour, you are going to have problems.
The pump either struggles as it gets restricted, or the pressure goes up....either way, the fuel temperature goes up and the life expectancy of the pump drops like a rock.
03-25-2016, 05:17 PM
#379
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Simple stuff, but everything needs to be looked at and considered, when doing engineering of something new....or it turns out wrong.
If the pump delivers 320 liters/hour and the regulator only returns 200 liters/hour....if you aren't actively using the other 120 liters/hour, you are going to have problems.
The pump either struggles as it gets restricted, or the pressure goes up....either way, the fuel temperature goes up and the life expectancy of the pump drops like a rock.
If the pump delivers 320 liters/hour and the regulator only returns 200 liters/hour....if you aren't actively using the other 120 liters/hour, you are going to have problems.
The pump either struggles as it gets restricted, or the pressure goes up....either way, the fuel temperature goes up and the life expectancy of the pump drops like a rock.
what i do know is that mine has lasted 8 full seasons at 40psi and 375rwhp
its the same pump that lasted 120 race days at 70psi as well.
im sure that would be a relatively easy check, to make sure the pressure isnt too high at max restriction. what did mark and joe use for a regulator?
03-25-2016, 08:07 PM
#380
Captain Obvious
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Do you need to borrow a scrub brush to get the sand out of your vagina this morning again? Tell you what. Kibort can do whatever the hell he wants. If he wants to participate in the effort and can source it for mass production and drop 5 figures into the tooling, he can go ahead. I don't recall 'bench racing' my builds either, even in high school and college when I was dropping Suzuki ITBs in Integras and getting paid to do it for the gains the cars made when tuned right. But nevermind that now since you assume some of us on here have to bow our heads to a bitter man such as you when you are on your 'off' days. I will continue to give advice as I read it in the books sitting in my library to those who can put it to good use.
I see how carefully you've chosen the word "dropping Suzuki ITBs" to give the illusion you actually built something. Anyone can install (drop) anything if someone else made them fit.
03-25-2016, 08:18 PM
#381
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i still don't get it.. why are you so angry? cant you just kick your dog or something?
Personal attacks, very nice. My guess is you got soft in the military and lost the abity to do things yourself without someone holding your hand. However, learned to recite books and give theoretical advices based on ZERO first hand knowledge.
I see how carefully you've chosen the word "dropping Suzuki ITBs" to give the illusion you actually built something. Anyone can install (drop) anything if someone else made them fit.
I see how carefully you've chosen the word "dropping Suzuki ITBs" to give the illusion you actually built something. Anyone can install (drop) anything if someone else made them fit.
03-25-2016, 08:18 PM
#382
Captain Obvious
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Super User
Is Jim's alter ego, Imo?
Jim, success in life is to dream big..... that's served me well in life. you might want to lighten up a bit! dreams come true and this thing, project, whatever, is NOT rocket science.
you want a REAL easy solution. just use ITBs and control the engine with motec.
carl has it all. just put a few foam filters over each runner and you are done!
an Jim.... why dont you make an consorted effort to contribute here, rather than put people down. or is that how you feel better?
as for impossible dreams............... remember, making the 5 liter euro 2 valve, was supposed to be impossible, using euro cams on an 84, the AFM could not support 100hp gains with only a fuel reg, you cant space out brakes with a machined washer and use GTS rotors, you cant use cyanne rotors on a 84 928, you cant put assembly lube on the piston rings , even diluted with oil. you cant use that surface quality of the heads (holbert stroker build), you cant use that cosmetic gasket and not trim the tabs, you cant replace just the wheel bearing and not the inner race, or it will last 100miles and explode., you cant accidentally hone the 4.7 euro block ("its junk" and it wasnt) , you cant use the conti timing belt, the shifter arms cant get out of adjustment on the S4 trannie, you cant make 315s fit on the front of the 928, you cant use a bat to make a nice roll job and fit bigger tires, you cant race the 928 without accusump, breathers, crank scraper, oil baffle, pan spacer, newer oil pick up, etc etc etc. and the last one (but not least)...(and not last really).... no 928 has ever survived faster than a 1:32 at willow with stock oil components. your car cant break 1:40 at laguna at that hp level....on an on and on!
Dream big Jim.. and these are not even dreams. they are just ideas!
I do think the low cost intake is a "Dream" and might even be a big dream, but nothing is impossible if you put your mind to it.
Jim, success in life is to dream big..... that's served me well in life. you might want to lighten up a bit! dreams come true and this thing, project, whatever, is NOT rocket science.
you want a REAL easy solution. just use ITBs and control the engine with motec.
carl has it all. just put a few foam filters over each runner and you are done!
an Jim.... why dont you make an consorted effort to contribute here, rather than put people down. or is that how you feel better?
as for impossible dreams............... remember, making the 5 liter euro 2 valve, was supposed to be impossible, using euro cams on an 84, the AFM could not support 100hp gains with only a fuel reg, you cant space out brakes with a machined washer and use GTS rotors, you cant use cyanne rotors on a 84 928, you cant put assembly lube on the piston rings , even diluted with oil. you cant use that surface quality of the heads (holbert stroker build), you cant use that cosmetic gasket and not trim the tabs, you cant replace just the wheel bearing and not the inner race, or it will last 100miles and explode., you cant accidentally hone the 4.7 euro block ("its junk" and it wasnt) , you cant use the conti timing belt, the shifter arms cant get out of adjustment on the S4 trannie, you cant make 315s fit on the front of the 928, you cant use a bat to make a nice roll job and fit bigger tires, you cant race the 928 without accusump, breathers, crank scraper, oil baffle, pan spacer, newer oil pick up, etc etc etc. and the last one (but not least)...(and not last really).... no 928 has ever survived faster than a 1:32 at willow with stock oil components. your car cant break 1:40 at laguna at that hp level....on an on and on!
Dream big Jim.. and these are not even dreams. they are just ideas!
I do think the low cost intake is a "Dream" and might even be a big dream, but nothing is impossible if you put your mind to it.
03-25-2016, 09:02 PM
#383
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03-25-2016, 09:43 PM
#384
Former Sponsor
that would not be good. so would you say the limitation for HP is around 400rwhp or higher? It sounds like the fuel regulation has some return line issues, and i know mine is different than the one Gregory uses on his 6liter, but could mine be able to keep up?
what i do know is that mine has lasted 8 full seasons at 40psi and 375rwhp
its the same pump that lasted 120 race days at 70psi as well.
im sure that would be a relatively easy check, to make sure the pressure isnt too high at max restriction. what did mark and joe use for a regulator?
what i do know is that mine has lasted 8 full seasons at 40psi and 375rwhp
its the same pump that lasted 120 race days at 70psi as well.
im sure that would be a relatively easy check, to make sure the pressure isnt too high at max restriction. what did mark and joe use for a regulator?
Mark and Joseph used an 044 pump with a stock regulator. I have no idea what the stock S4 regulator return flow rate is, but it seems to work fine on many cars.
However, when making wholesale changes in basic design, the position of the stock regulator becomes problematic.....there's no room for it where it originally was located. Also, the plumbing needs to change. There's boatloads of different ways to solve this problem....move the stock regulator somewhere else, use a more modern regulator, are just a couple of options.
Right now, we have not sent the fuel rail final design off to have them made...so we can do any number of things....and those details need to be considered.
03-25-2016, 10:31 PM
#385
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Going through this thread and fantasizing what the upcoming manifold could be based on Greg's and Hans' statements are making me want to keep my '89 white S4 around to be the privileged few who are allowed to purchase a setup like this.
Imagine, this manifold, paired with Greg's exhaust system....
C'mon, no more teasing. Please!
Imagine, this manifold, paired with Greg's exhaust system....
C'mon, no more teasing. Please!
03-25-2016, 10:58 PM
#387
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Although not yet April fools day .....the Salsbury 4850 D has clearly pointed out that "debating" with Kibort is pointless..... not because he is right or just or honorable simple so self immersed that it matters little what anyone else posts . And MOST IMPORTANT always has to make the last post since in his mind the last post WINS !!!
since in his mind the last post WINS !!!
03-25-2016, 11:31 PM
#389
Former Sponsor
Regardless of how insigificant and mundane Kibort thinks it is....finally being able to make real, reliable, repeatable, no "hoops" to jump through to dyno it, anybody's dyno can measure it because the "tightest" dyno Greg can find on the planet confirms it, no bullsh!t, no excuses, 500hp out of a naturally aspirated 928 street engine is going to be a great step forward, in my mind.
Wait until you see what we do with it. It's going to knock your socks off!