Lifter noise solutions needed - (gasket improperly installed)
03-06-2012, 01:30 PM
#46
Unfortunatly it sounds a lot like my car did last year after a mishap. After the intake refresh something got down in the head and bent a valve. It was actually just rattling on top of the piston to make the noise. I am sorry to say I think that sounds like more than just a lifter. Have you ever had the head off? I always try to look at the bright side of things. After my misfortune I got a new head gasket and valve job out of the deal on that one side. A lot of work though. Also do you know exactly what side it is on. When I had my trouble Sean R reccomended I use a stick as a ear piece to isolate it. Works surpisingly well. Get a flat 2 in. wide and very thin piece of trim wood about 4ft long.
03-06-2012, 05:56 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
When I listen to my video compared to Andrew's, I think they sound substantially similar.
The motor had been out of the donor car for years, the heads haven't been touched. It was reported as a strong runner before removal. I have a stethoscope at the shop that I can bring home to isolate the sound, currently it sounds like it may be #3 or #4. The motor had the intake on it when I got it, so unlikely anything go in there while in storage. I put paper towel in the ports when I was working on the motor, and vaccumed out the ports prior to putting the CIS manifold on.
I'm going to stick with the plan and try the 502 after warm up and see what happens.
I can say that the sound is quieter (if that can be believed) then it was when I brought it home. Still pretty loud though.
The motor had been out of the donor car for years, the heads haven't been touched. It was reported as a strong runner before removal. I have a stethoscope at the shop that I can bring home to isolate the sound, currently it sounds like it may be #3 or #4. The motor had the intake on it when I got it, so unlikely anything go in there while in storage. I put paper towel in the ports when I was working on the motor, and vaccumed out the ports prior to putting the CIS manifold on.
I'm going to stick with the plan and try the 502 after warm up and see what happens.
I can say that the sound is quieter (if that can be believed) then it was when I brought it home. Still pretty loud though.
03-07-2012, 01:52 AM
#49
Former Sponsor
Did not get a chance to add the Swepco 502 yet. Motor died while warming up, found that the exciter wire had separated from the 14 pin plug. I'll resolder tonight and try it again.
I did make a quick video however, and I must say the sound is much different when listening to it on the video compared to standing over the motor. And I don't mean that in a good way.
Here it is, are we still talking lifter noise here, or did someone stick a diesel in when I wasn't looking?
I did make a quick video however, and I must say the sound is much different when listening to it on the video compared to standing over the motor. And I don't mean that in a good way.
Here it is, are we still talking lifter noise here, or did someone stick a diesel in when I wasn't looking?
That's a whole bunch of noise.
There is oil in the engine?
03-07-2012, 09:13 AM
#51
Three Wheelin'
I had a similar problem where the clacking started low, like a lifter, and progressed into a much louded more pronounced sound like a rod knock.. turns out the PO's mechanic either didn't torque the cam gear bolt correctly, or it loosened up within the 2k miles I put on it. If you haven't already done so try the stethoscope, if you can't pin it down right away shut it down and don't run it (my opinion only). In the video that noise does not sound good and running it won't help. BTDT, and sorry to hear it
03-07-2012, 11:33 AM
#52
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
[rimshot] Thank you very much Abbot and Costello. You guys are killing me here.
Oil pressure is fine. Kicks up to 5 bar immediately, and then when warm settles to 3.5. I am using that blue Valvoline oil that someone posted on sale a while back. Not to sure what I think about it, but maybe it's not the right choice for our motors. It had 8.5 quarts of the stuff at start up.
I had a similar problem where the clacking started low, like a lifter, and progressed into a much louded more pronounced sound like a rod knock.. turns out the PO's mechanic either didn't torque the cam gear bolt correctly, or it loosened up within the 2k miles I put on it.
Thanks for the continued help, will know more this weekend when I can run it again.
03-07-2012, 01:12 PM
#53
I suppose that could be a completely compressed and stuck lifter. That is very loud.
03-07-2012, 02:24 PM
#54
Former Sponsor
Do it in my S4 all the time, guess it couldn't hurt. May seem a little strange going around the track with tunes cranking, but I don't see that its a violation of the SCCA rules.
[rimshot] Thank you very much Abbot and Costello. You guys are killing me here.
Oil pressure is fine. Kicks up to 5 bar immediately, and then when warm settles to 3.5. I am using that blue Valvoline oil that someone posted on sale a while back. Not to sure what I think about it, but maybe it's not the right choice for our motors. It had 8.5 quarts of the stuff at start up.
I'll recheck the torque on the cam gears before next startup, would be great if it were that simple. I'll definitely have the stethoscope with me to track down the sound as well in case that doesn't work.
Thanks for the continued help, will know more this weekend when I can run it again.
[rimshot] Thank you very much Abbot and Costello. You guys are killing me here.
Oil pressure is fine. Kicks up to 5 bar immediately, and then when warm settles to 3.5. I am using that blue Valvoline oil that someone posted on sale a while back. Not to sure what I think about it, but maybe it's not the right choice for our motors. It had 8.5 quarts of the stuff at start up.
I'll recheck the torque on the cam gears before next startup, would be great if it were that simple. I'll definitely have the stethoscope with me to track down the sound as well in case that doesn't work.
Thanks for the continued help, will know more this weekend when I can run it again.
This is a long, terrible story, but here's the basics:
I built an engine for a customer that likes in another country. He had a shop remove the engine, ship it to me, and then I shipped it back, for them to install. The car had an accusump, with the "associated" check valve to keep the oil flowing back towards the engine, if the oil pressure dropped. The stock oil filter was an "oil adaptor" with an "in" and "out" fitting. I had drilled a hole into the outside of the oil filter boss of the block, where the oil pressure sender could be inserted. One fitting, coming out of the block to the remote filter and Accusump, was straight, and the other fitting was a 45 degree fitting. The hoses, in the car, were also a straight fitting and a 45 degree fitting, so that it was obvious damn obvious which line went to which fitting....virtually no "plumber" would ever hook two 45's together.
Well, of course, the shop that removed and installed the engine hooked the two 45's together and the two straights together. They started the engine, and although they had tons of oil pressure (the outer section of the block where the filter attaches is pressure out), the flow was in the wrong direction and the "in-line" check valve "dead headed" the pressure. Had lots of lifter noise...obviously. Well, they continued to run the engine...with no oil flow to any piece of the engine. They ran it for about 30 minutes to "break it in" and even got to the point of running it on a chassis dyno to put some load on it. Finally, the dyno guy refused to run the engine any more. It finally "stuck" the camshafts, as they were taking to off the dyno, and the cam belt jumped timing.
Amazingly enough, they fixed this....and ran the engine again!!!! They decided to take the car to a race and start the race! Finally, the rod bearings ran out of lubricant and "stuck".
Can you say "scrap metal"?
This whole experience "renewed" my faith that I was using the proper engine assembly lubricants. This thing ran for over an hour....with no oil feed to any part of the engine! Hard to beat that!
You couldn't possibly be making a similar mistake?
03-07-2012, 05:16 PM
#55
BTW...good luck on the lifter noise thing
03-07-2012, 06:01 PM
#56
Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Well, I found out that indicated oil pressure can be a bit misleading.....
This is a long, terrible story, but here's the basics:
I built an engine for a customer that likes in another country. He had a shop remove the engine, ship it to me, and then I shipped it back, for them to install. The car had an accusump, with the "associated" check valve to keep the oil flowing back towards the engine, if the oil pressure dropped. The stock oil filter was an "oil adaptor" with an "in" and "out" fitting. I had drilled a hole into the outside of the oil filter boss of the block, where the oil pressure sender could be inserted. One fitting, coming out of the block to the remote filter and Accusump, was straight, and the other fitting was a 45 degree fitting. The hoses, in the car, were also a straight fitting and a 45 degree fitting, so that it was obvious damn obvious which line went to which fitting....virtually no "plumber" would ever hook two 45's together.
Well, of course, the shop that removed and installed the engine hooked the two 45's together and the two straights together. They started the engine, and although they had tons of oil pressure (the outer section of the block where the filter attaches is pressure out), the flow was in the wrong direction and the "in-line" check valve "dead headed" the pressure. Had lots of lifter noise...obviously. Well, they continued to run the engine...with no oil flow to any piece of the engine. They ran it for about 30 minutes to "break it in" and even got to the point of running it on a chassis dyno to put some load on it. Finally, the dyno guy refused to run the engine any more. It finally "stuck" the camshafts, as they were taking to off the dyno, and the cam belt jumped timing.
Amazingly enough, they fixed this....and ran the engine again!!!! They decided to take the car to a race and start the race! Finally, the rod bearings ran out of lubricant and "stuck".
Can you say "scrap metal"?
This whole experience "renewed" my faith that I was using the proper engine assembly lubricants. This thing ran for over an hour....with no oil feed to any part of the engine! Hard to beat that!
You couldn't possibly be making a similar mistake?
This is a long, terrible story, but here's the basics:
I built an engine for a customer that likes in another country. He had a shop remove the engine, ship it to me, and then I shipped it back, for them to install. The car had an accusump, with the "associated" check valve to keep the oil flowing back towards the engine, if the oil pressure dropped. The stock oil filter was an "oil adaptor" with an "in" and "out" fitting. I had drilled a hole into the outside of the oil filter boss of the block, where the oil pressure sender could be inserted. One fitting, coming out of the block to the remote filter and Accusump, was straight, and the other fitting was a 45 degree fitting. The hoses, in the car, were also a straight fitting and a 45 degree fitting, so that it was obvious damn obvious which line went to which fitting....virtually no "plumber" would ever hook two 45's together.
Well, of course, the shop that removed and installed the engine hooked the two 45's together and the two straights together. They started the engine, and although they had tons of oil pressure (the outer section of the block where the filter attaches is pressure out), the flow was in the wrong direction and the "in-line" check valve "dead headed" the pressure. Had lots of lifter noise...obviously. Well, they continued to run the engine...with no oil flow to any piece of the engine. They ran it for about 30 minutes to "break it in" and even got to the point of running it on a chassis dyno to put some load on it. Finally, the dyno guy refused to run the engine any more. It finally "stuck" the camshafts, as they were taking to off the dyno, and the cam belt jumped timing.
Amazingly enough, they fixed this....and ran the engine again!!!! They decided to take the car to a race and start the race! Finally, the rod bearings ran out of lubricant and "stuck".
Can you say "scrap metal"?
This whole experience "renewed" my faith that I was using the proper engine assembly lubricants. This thing ran for over an hour....with no oil feed to any part of the engine! Hard to beat that!
You couldn't possibly be making a similar mistake?
03-07-2012, 09:15 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I'm the last guy to take any offense when it comes to someone mentioning whether or not I forgot to check or do something while working on one of these cars, anything is possible in my book.
So I do appreciate your persistence Greg, much better than not getting involved at all and taking the postion that "he'll figure it out sooner or later, for better or for worse".
So that being said, the only thing I can think of that would affect oil control in the motor is that this is an '83 4.7L motor which would normally have the external oil cooler.
Brian had mentioned that he doesn't run the external cooler on his 4.7L in the Estate, and just runs the 4.5L plugs in place of where the oil cooler lines would go to the block.
When I look at the PET, it appears to show all of the same internal workings in the oil pressure regulator with both motors, however the PET does also show the '79 motor with the oil cooler lines which it doesn't have. But, based on the PET, I presumed that both motors had the same parts to the oil pressure regulator.
If the internals are not the same, and capping the oil cooler line ports without doing anything further is causing an oil starvation problem, then yes, " Houston, we may have a problem. "
Could this be the issue?
So I do appreciate your persistence Greg, much better than not getting involved at all and taking the postion that "he'll figure it out sooner or later, for better or for worse".
So that being said, the only thing I can think of that would affect oil control in the motor is that this is an '83 4.7L motor which would normally have the external oil cooler.
Brian had mentioned that he doesn't run the external cooler on his 4.7L in the Estate, and just runs the 4.5L plugs in place of where the oil cooler lines would go to the block.
When I look at the PET, it appears to show all of the same internal workings in the oil pressure regulator with both motors, however the PET does also show the '79 motor with the oil cooler lines which it doesn't have. But, based on the PET, I presumed that both motors had the same parts to the oil pressure regulator.
If the internals are not the same, and capping the oil cooler line ports without doing anything further is causing an oil starvation problem, then yes, " Houston, we may have a problem. "
Could this be the issue?
03-07-2012, 09:55 PM
#60
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Most of the parts shown in PET in the area of the oil cooler ports are omitted in cars without an oil cooler. If an engine that was originally assembled to be used with an oil cooler has the oil cooler disconnected and the ports capped, with no other parts being removed, you will have a problem. The system does have an over pressure bypass, to deal with a blocked cooler presumably so you will get some pressure, but the drop is significant. Also, I think the reason your noise gets worse once the engine warms up could be because the oil cooler is bypassed until the engine is warm in a normally operating car. So maybe things get even worse once the system tries to switch in the "plugged" (non-existent) oil cooler.