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I think greatfox articulated it clearly. If you think those are immaterial changes, you don’t know much about performance cars. They add up to a significant difference in handling and performance, as is being reported by both reviewers and owners, and proven by some pretty quick lap times. Maybe it would be a good idea if everyone who doesn’t own a GT4RS would just stfu and let the people who actually own one provide actual feedback.
Nahhhh, it’s the Interwebs…
I love the Spyder/GT4 platform. I don’t have a problem with the strut suspension. I find it gives the car character although it can become less settled and predictable at the limit than say a GT3. And yes even minor tweaks added together can add up to a material benefit. Still, I’ve never found the GT4/Spyder out of control, unsafe, etc. but if I did I would probably choose a different sports car and that’s the point I was trying to make.
The GT4RS looks like a beast. I hope RomoNL enjoys his GT4RS and finds the modified suspension transformative enough to mitigate the certain GT4 characteristics he appears to abhor.
All get validated at Nardo and Weissach. Hundred of highly qualified test drivers. For a setting/tuning to be released, there is a reason behind. At Nardo, they put cars on continuous 37+hrs loops around the big ring and the handling circuit. If hundreds of professionals deemed a suspension setting is good enough, it's good enough. For those that don't agreed with Porsche's 'selection', then you aren't a good enough driver, go learn to be a better one, plain and simple..
Fair enough on the last part about being a better driver - which I am not. However, its the suits in the front office who have to report to their masters and shareholders about the costs relative to price of an automobile and where that automobile sits in their model line up. The test drivers and engineers have little leverage against the executives who are making the sales/financial decisions. These decision makers are not interested in making the best car - they are interested in selling the most numbers of cars in any given year based on the overall demands of the market and the manufactures capabilities to deliver those cars at any given time. Does a static toe link make a difference and cost less and make the car easier to produce - yes. Is the exhaust on the car a total compromise because of emission regulations - yes... and so on and so on. Is the Cayman 'good enough' sure its good enough. But im not interested in good enough im interested in taking whats great about the car vis a vis whats not and adding my time, money and research to make it better for me. I would argue to anyone that my car is better than the stock factory offering and I would be right. This will go for the GT4RS as well because as a factory offering it will and does have compromises that can be modified to the better.
If you guys only knew what each and every single model/variant had to go through during testing.
All get validated at Nardo and Weissach. Hundred of highly qualified test drivers. For a setting/tuning to be released, there is a reason behind. At Nardo, they put cars on continuous 37+hrs loops around the big ring and the handling circuit. If hundreds of professionals deemed a suspension setting is good enough, it's good enough. For those that don't agreed with Porsche's 'selection', then you aren't a good enough driver, go learn to be a better one, plain and simple.
Of course there are different driving styles between drivers, but they aren't that far apart when one is good enough. Slight tire pressure change, toe-in/toe-out, slight camber adjustment is all that's needed. For those that think a wholesale suspension change is what needed for them to be satisfied, then you are the problem, not the car.
When I did endurance races with a partner, he prefers a car that's looser, but the difference in setup between him and I are like half a degree here and there, and a couple clicks on the brake bias, nothing wholesale. I had no problem driving his setup, not my preferred choice but it's fine and it works, he is the faster driver anyway so I adapt to his. I raced Cup cars, and also keep a GT4CS at my track. Cup car is faster, but the GT4CS is more enjoyable. The mid engine car just flows from corner to corner, very willing to change direction, as opposed to the Cup car where I really needed to wrestle it to go around corners. In my series, Cup cars and GT4CSs runs at the same time. One would think the Cup cars will be far out in front of the pack. it isn't. The slowest Cup cars would get passed by the fastest GT4CSs. it comes down to the driver, not the car.
At last, amongst the dozens of posts pillaring the 4RS for its suspension problems, some sense is finally spoken.
True story. A couple of months ago while at Spa driving the 4RS with a bunch of Porsche instructors and race car drivers, a question was asked about the rear suspension of the 4RS. The instructor, who had just gone out and set a reference lap of 2min 36sec for us without breaking a sweat, laughed and said "when you can lap the Nordschelife in the same time as Jorg B, we might have something to discuss...until then just learn how to drive better".
Fair enough on the last part about being a better driver - which I am not. However, it's the suits in the front office who have to report to their masters and shareholders about the costs relative to price of an automobile and where that automobile sits in their model line up. The test drivers and engineers have little leverage against the executives who are making the sales/financial decisions. These decision makers are not interested in making the best car - they are interested in selling the most numbers of cars in any given year based on the overall demands of the market and the manufactures capabilities to deliver those cars at any given time. Does a static toe link make a difference and cost less and make the car easier to produce - yes. Is the exhaust on the car a total compromise because of emission regulations - yes... and so on and so on. Is the Cayman 'good enough' sure it's good enough. But im not interested in good enough im interested in taking whats great about the car vis a vis whats not and adding my time, money and research to make it better for me. I would argue to anyone that my car is better than the stock factory offering and I would be right. This will go for the GT4RS as well because as a factory offering it will and does have compromises that can be modified to the better.
Here is a good question for you.
Do you think in the 'compromised' state of a stock car, you can outperform or get close to what the factory test drivers can do?
If that's a yes, then your 'improvements' make sense. If not, then you are just touching up Mona Lisa the painting.
There are certain things that fall outside of that scoop, like louder exhaust and such, sound is personal preference. Same with different wheel designs.
For the longest time, there wasn't double wishbone front suspension for the 911. People still went super quick, is that a must have? Put a good driver in a 991 GT3, .1 or .2 doesn't matter, heck or even a 997 GT3. Is it automatic that someone in a 992 GT3 will be quicker than him?
Not unlike say someone with a trick up AR15, fancy scope and laser and such, vs a Special Force guy with the same gun but only iron sights. Who will be the better shooter?
At last, amongst the dozens of posts pillaring the 4RS for its suspension problems, some sense is finally spoken.
True story. A couple of months ago while at Spa driving the 4RS with a bunch of Porsche instructors and race car drivers, a question was asked about the rear suspension of the 4RS. The instructor, who had just gone out and set a reference lap of 2min 36sec for us without breaking a sweat, laughed and said "when you can lap the Nordschelife in the same time as Jorg B, we might have something to discuss...until then just learn how to drive better".
2:36. You know, give a Cup car with hot slicks to most people and they wouldn't even get close to that.
2:36. You know, give a Cup car with hot slicks to most people and they wouldn't even get close to that.
As a point of reference/comparison, I was also at Spa on a different occasion driving a GT4 CS and a GT3 CUP. Dennis Olsen was the reference driver for the day and went out and put down a pair of reference laps for us.
His reference lap on slicks in the GT4 CS was 2:32.77.
His reference lap in the GT3 CUP was 2:25.60.
A 7.17sec difference.
I was lucky enough to be able to take home all the VBOX data and videos of these two laps. This is the data trace of the two laps. Red is the GT4 CS. Green is the GT3 CUP. As you can see, in a lot of places they are pretty much the same Its only where speed counts that the CUP car was in a league of its own.
The GT4 RS time of 2:36 on CUP 2 tyres was only 4 secs away from the GT4 CS on slicks.....and the driver of the GT4 RS, while very, very good, was not in the same league as Dennis Olsen so, ultimately, it could have been a bit closer still.
thanks to certain individuals, this thread began to suck because of all these "my modded GT4 is better than stock GT4RS, even though I have not driven a GT4RS yet."
Mind you, this is the driving impression of GT4RS. Not what I think it will be like based on what I don't have.
As a point of reference/comparison, I was also at Spa on a different occasion driving a GT4 CS and a GT3 CUP. Dennis Olsen was the reference driver for the day and went out and put down a pair of reference laps for us.
His reference lap on slicks in the GT4 CS was 2:32.77.
His reference lap in the GT3 CUP was 2:25.60.
A 7.17sec difference.
I was lucky enough to be able to take home all the VBOX data and videos of these two laps. This is the data trace of the two laps. Red is the GT4 CS. Green is the GT3 CUP. As you can see, in a lot of places they are pretty much the same Its only where speed counts that the CUP car was in a league of its own.
The GT4 RS time of 2:36 on CUP 2 tyres was only 4 secs away from the GT4 CS on slicks.....and the driver of the GT4 RS, while very, very good, was not in the same league as Dennis Olsen so, ultimately, it could have been a bit closer still.
That's interesting speed trace through Eau Rouge for the GT4CS, that's not braking, but stronger than just lift off. Also interesting to see the GT4CS get though Stavelot flat.
I raced at Spa in a Cup car, I know the circuit very well. So busy in a Cup car as those little straights between the right/lefts left/rights, those aren't short enough so literally a stab of gas then 1/4 second later it's full on brake again.
Stavelot is especially annoying in a Cup, so many times so tempted to go though flat but the car just won't be able to.
Never drove a GT4CS on it, but from the speed trace it would seems a more enjoyable car even when it's slower as it is like flowing from one corner to the next.
Imagine a GT4RS with fresh Cup Rs. probably another second or 2 chopped off.
Do you think in the 'compromised' state of a stock car, you can outperform or get close to what the factory test drivers can do?
If that's a yes, then your 'improvements' make sense. If not, then you are just touching up Mona Lisa the painting.
There are certain things that fall outside of that scoop, like louder exhaust and such, sound is personal preference. Same with different wheel designs.
For the longest time, there wasn't double wishbone front suspension for the 911. People still went super quick, is that a must have? Put a good driver in a 991 GT3, .1 or .2 doesn't matter, heck or even a 997 GT3. Is it automatic that someone in a 992 GT3 will be quicker than him?
Not unlike say someone with a trick up AR15, fancy scope and laser and such, vs a Special Force guy with the same gun but only iron sights. Who will be the better shooter?
Yes and Roger Federer can beat me in tennis playing left handed with a frying pan in high heels so what!? These 'better driver' arguments are a deflection. I can say better car is a better car and be just as right and the fact that Porches CHANGED STUFF on the RS is enough validation of that point. Ill leave you all (in this thread) to enjoy your GT4RS as is stock from the factory. Buh Bye (for now).
Yes and Roger Federer can beat me in tennis playing left handed with a frying pan in high heels so what!? These 'better driver' arguments are a deflection. I can say better car is a better car and be just as right and the fact that Porches CHANGED STUFF on the RS is enough validation of that point. Ill leave you all (in this thread) to enjoy your GT4RS as is stock from the factory. Buh Bye (for now).
That's why there is a whole industry built around mentality like that for your money
As a point of reference/comparison, I was also at Spa on a different occasion driving a GT4 CS and a GT3 CUP. Dennis Olsen was the reference driver for the day and went out and put down a pair of reference laps for us.
His reference lap on slicks in the GT4 CS was 2:32.77.
His reference lap in the GT3 CUP was 2:25.60.
A 7.17sec difference.
I was lucky enough to be able to take home all the VBOX data and videos of these two laps. This is the data trace of the two laps. Red is the GT4 CS. Green is the GT3 CUP. As you can see, in a lot of places they are pretty much the same Its only where speed counts that the CUP car was in a league of its own.
The GT4 RS time of 2:36 on CUP 2 tyres was only 4 secs away from the GT4 CS on slicks.....and the driver of the GT4 RS, while very, very good, was not in the same league as Dennis Olsen so, ultimately, it could have been a bit closer still.
Fascinating, thanks for sharing. Interesting to see the GT4CS carries more speed through Radillon but loses most of its time down Kemmel and Blanchimont. Guess that mid engine dynamics make the butthole pucker less through Radillon, hence more speed, but it loses out on HP down the long stretches. Wonder what an un BoP'd GT4RS CS would do.
So to get this thread back on track, I have been driving the car a bit more and only have 1 day on track, however have 2 days at Bathurst coming up.
I have purchased a setup sheet from suspension secrets in the UK, I haven't seen them yet, but I reckon it'll give me some more camber up front and a little toe in at rear to fix up some high speed braking instability, and also improve tyre wear on track. I am not going to go changing any parts yet as want to see how I can go with just adjusting stock parts for now.
I have also done a few days using it as a "commuter" for work. Podcasts and music/ taking calls is no problem so far as being able to hear them and they can hear me clearly.
11-15-2022, 01:18 AM
