Time to renegotiate?
03-17-2020, 05:52 PM
#62
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
To make this analogous or to conflate it with exploiting a situation with respect to hand sanitizer is both myopic and disingenuous at best. The market has changed substantially. I check the car market regularly and car prices are dropping. Yes even for Porsche’s.
Porsche has the right to charge what it wants. But even they are re-examining their profit margin. See link below . That was the basis of my post. We are in uncharted waters and I don’t think my question was out of order in terms of sharing the pain. Maybe Porsche could “get by” with only 10% profit margin and pass the other 5% on to the customer was all I was getting at. And a repeat customer at that. Many bottom lines are being effected by this pandemic. Look at the last line of the article. He uses the term “major crisis”. Is Covid 19 not a major crisis? And his other key word was temporarily. Perhaps Porsche won’t negotiate because it is a GT car, but what is the harm in asking? We are all in a different financial position then we were even a week ago.
“Still, the brand is sticking with its long-held goal to generate profit margins of at least 15%, more than twice as much as most VW group sister brands generate. Meschke reiterated the margin can fall below this threshold temporarily if a major crisis hits.”
Read more at: https://www.bloombergquint.com/busin...tters-industry
Porsche has the right to charge what it wants. But even they are re-examining their profit margin. See link below . That was the basis of my post. We are in uncharted waters and I don’t think my question was out of order in terms of sharing the pain. Maybe Porsche could “get by” with only 10% profit margin and pass the other 5% on to the customer was all I was getting at. And a repeat customer at that. Many bottom lines are being effected by this pandemic. Look at the last line of the article. He uses the term “major crisis”. Is Covid 19 not a major crisis? And his other key word was temporarily. Perhaps Porsche won’t negotiate because it is a GT car, but what is the harm in asking? We are all in a different financial position then we were even a week ago.
“Still, the brand is sticking with its long-held goal to generate profit margins of at least 15%, more than twice as much as most VW group sister brands generate. Meschke reiterated the margin can fall below this threshold temporarily if a major crisis hits.”
Read more at: https://www.bloombergquint.com/busin...tters-industry
You also seem to be holding fast to your assertations so I am not sure why you asked here, you can do what you want, you don't need our approval.
03-17-2020, 05:52 PM
#63
Same thread I have posted below. With a similar question to mine. Some well thought out cerebral responses. My dealer will be just fine. Really “bend over”? Asking for percentage off of MRSP during a changed economic environment? He sells a car and makes money. That is asking someone to bend over? I guess we have a different opinion of economics 101.
https://rennlist.com/forums/992/1185...fallout-4.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/992/1185...fallout-4.html
03-17-2020, 07:04 PM
#64
Burning Brakes
Lol. whatever you tell yourself. It’s still using a global pandemic to squeeze your dealer out of a few bucks. If you don’t intend to buy another GT car from them, then sure go full transactional on them. Don’t pretend it’s some noble virtue about the purity of economics. We’re only a couple weeks into this in NA and you’re already looking for how to best exploit the situation. And your dealer is definitely not going to be fine.
I don’t see the OP stating it’s nobility that is driving his action, but it is basic economic forces at play. Buying a Porsche at a discount does not add to the death count for covid. It is using a market situation reality to the advantage of the buyer. Are Porsche (dealers) conversely any different for selling over MSRP when demand outpaces supply? There are plenty of threads on that but for some reason this one is getting a lot of negative attention in comparison to the almost unanimous support of rage against ADM.
Are you going to withhold stock purchases at this opportune time when prices are low because you feel like it is taking advantage of the market in the context of a pandemic?
If we want to get more deeply philosophical on deaths and cars directly related then let’s have a look at how much C02 and other pollutants our precious Porsches put out?
Again, the pendulum swings both ways.
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03-17-2020, 07:52 PM
#65
I love this thread because it’s a good cross section of owner opinions. It extends into concepts beyond cars which is interesting, and although this is the type of thread that moderators love to shut down, hopefully it will soldier on and the thread will continue to be seasoned with such a polarizing result.
I don’t see the OP stating it’s nobility that is driving his action, but it is basic economic forces at play. Buying a Porsche at a discount does not add to the death count for covid. It is using a market situation reality to the advantage of the buyer. Are Porsche (dealers) conversely any different for selling over MSRP when demand outpaces supply? There are plenty of threads on that but for some reason this one is getting a lot of negative attention in comparison to the almost unanimous support of rage against ADM.
Are you going to withhold stock purchases at this opportune time when prices are low because you feel like it is taking advantage of the market in the context of a pandemic?
If we want to get more deeply philosophical on deaths and cars directly related then let’s have a look at how much C02 and other pollutants our precious Porsches put out?
Again, the pendulum swings both ways.
I don’t see the OP stating it’s nobility that is driving his action, but it is basic economic forces at play. Buying a Porsche at a discount does not add to the death count for covid. It is using a market situation reality to the advantage of the buyer. Are Porsche (dealers) conversely any different for selling over MSRP when demand outpaces supply? There are plenty of threads on that but for some reason this one is getting a lot of negative attention in comparison to the almost unanimous support of rage against ADM.
Are you going to withhold stock purchases at this opportune time when prices are low because you feel like it is taking advantage of the market in the context of a pandemic?
If we want to get more deeply philosophical on deaths and cars directly related then let’s have a look at how much C02 and other pollutants our precious Porsches put out?
Again, the pendulum swings both ways.
03-17-2020, 08:03 PM
#66
Burning Brakes
"Some other dealer charged ADM to some other random guy, neither relevant to me in any way" as your excuse to squeeze your current dealer who is NOT charging you ADM is pure rationalization. If THIS dealer had charged OP some ADM on this purchase or a previous purchase, sure, goes around. That's not what's happening. OP got an allocation for MSRP and wants to use a global pandemic to squeeze his dealer. No law against that. Don't expect a lot of people to respect you for it either. Most notably your dealer the next time you need a GT allocation. Assuming they don't go bankrupt.
03-18-2020, 02:12 AM
#67
While lower consumer confidence is understandable as a time when many here have lost enough money to buy a house in one market or another. There are respectable stages to renegotiate a deal, after signing isn't one.
If paying the least you can for a car or one that will hold or increase in value is your goal, start watching Bring a Trailer. GT3 RS' are already selling at new lows, some of the prized vintage cars will follow suit and opportunities could be around for a year.
If paying the least you can for a car or one that will hold or increase in value is your goal, start watching Bring a Trailer. GT3 RS' are already selling at new lows, some of the prized vintage cars will follow suit and opportunities could be around for a year.
03-18-2020, 08:52 AM
#68
Rennlist Member
What if there is a trade in the deal? Are dealers going to offer you less for your trade now while selling the new car at MSRP? And what if you’re planning on selling your car privately? Do you expect to get the same price as you would in a robust market? The price of a new car purchase is typically a combination of the new car price and the old car value. If the latter drops, you end up paying more for the new car. So in reality, we will all likely end up paying more than we bargained for, for our new cars.
03-18-2020, 09:04 AM
#69
Rennlist Member
What if there is a trade in the deal? Are dealers going to offer you less for your trade now while selling the new car at MSRP? And what if you’re planning on selling your car privately? Do you expect to get the same price as you would in a robust market? The price of a new car purchase is typically a combination of the new car price and the old car value. If the latter drops, you end up paying more for the new car. So in reality, we will all likely end up paying more than we bargained for, for our new cars.
so I am in the camp, to ask the dealer for some discount or some packages , but at the same time , you have to accept less money for trade in.. Fairness should apply to both parties
03-18-2020, 11:00 AM
#70
Conflate, myopic and disingenuous, all used correctly in a single sentence. You appear to be an educated man. Therefore, I think you can discern the difference between what’s happening here versus a typical recession. This is a pandemic, a completely exogenous event like 9/11. This isn’t the result of a normal economic contraction or a systemic financial crisis due to bad actors within the system. This is a wave of human suffering, the health of our nation both physically and financially are in varying degrees of peril.
if you don’t like the hand santizer example perhaps this one is more apropos or analogous: Say you had a contract to buy an item from a business that was near ground zero. After the 9/11 attacks, you surmise that the business may be under economic stress. Seeing an opportunity to profit from the situation, you dust off your pants and try to “bend over” the business owner by renegotiating the agreed upon price. As I said in my previous post, that is callous opportunism at its worst. If you cant see that clearly than perhaps it is you who need glasses.
if you don’t like the hand santizer example perhaps this one is more apropos or analogous: Say you had a contract to buy an item from a business that was near ground zero. After the 9/11 attacks, you surmise that the business may be under economic stress. Seeing an opportunity to profit from the situation, you dust off your pants and try to “bend over” the business owner by renegotiating the agreed upon price. As I said in my previous post, that is callous opportunism at its worst. If you cant see that clearly than perhaps it is you who need glasses.
To make this analogous or to conflate it with exploiting a situation with respect to hand sanitizer is both myopic and disingenuous at best. The market has changed substantially. I check the car market regularly and car prices are dropping. Yes even for Porsche’s.
Porsche has the right to charge what it wants. But even they are re-examining their profit margin. See link below . That was the basis of my post. We are in uncharted waters and I don’t think my question was out of order in terms of sharing the pain. Maybe Porsche could “get by” with only 10% profit margin and pass the other 5% on to the customer was all I was getting at. And a repeat customer at that. Many bottom lines are being effected by this pandemic. Look at the last line of the article. He uses the term “major crisis”. Is Covid 19 not a major crisis? And his other key word was temporarily. Perhaps Porsche won’t negotiate because it is a GT car, but what is the harm in asking? We are all in a different financial position then we were even a week ago.
“Still, the brand is sticking with its long-held goal to generate profit margins of at least 15%, more than twice as much as most VW group sister brands generate. Meschke reiterated the margin can fall below this threshold temporarily if a major crisis hits.”
Read more at: https://www.bloombergquint.com/busin...tters-industry
Porsche has the right to charge what it wants. But even they are re-examining their profit margin. See link below . That was the basis of my post. We are in uncharted waters and I don’t think my question was out of order in terms of sharing the pain. Maybe Porsche could “get by” with only 10% profit margin and pass the other 5% on to the customer was all I was getting at. And a repeat customer at that. Many bottom lines are being effected by this pandemic. Look at the last line of the article. He uses the term “major crisis”. Is Covid 19 not a major crisis? And his other key word was temporarily. Perhaps Porsche won’t negotiate because it is a GT car, but what is the harm in asking? We are all in a different financial position then we were even a week ago.
“Still, the brand is sticking with its long-held goal to generate profit margins of at least 15%, more than twice as much as most VW group sister brands generate. Meschke reiterated the margin can fall below this threshold temporarily if a major crisis hits.”
Read more at: https://www.bloombergquint.com/busin...tters-industry
03-18-2020, 02:30 PM
#71
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks for your opening complimentary sentence and also thanks for the ad hominem attack 
. Whether it is a virus or sub prime mortgage, the economic realities are the same - we are in a different financial position - both myself and Porsche. If we are all in together, then a small step from Porsche to recognize this, is not outlandish or exploitive. In fact, I would argue it would be negligent and irresponsible to my own family not to examine and explore both price reduction or cancelling my order. I did reach out to the GM at my dealership and he was excellent - as he has been all along. Governments and companies all over the world are trying to alleviate the financial burden. For example, personal income taxes have been deferred until August in Canada. General Motors have lowered its borrowing rate and financing term for their cars, mobile cellular offering deferred payments, free overages, and long distance charges And I could go on with other numerous examples. My inbox, like yours is full of them. Some economists are talking about a possible 20 per cent unemployment rate or a deeper recession than 2008. Not a huge ask to receive an email from Porsche/dealership with respect to most people’s 2nd largest financial purchase. When I am in meeting with engineers they talk about the 100 year storm. This is where we are economically. The fact is there is economic anxiety from both individuals and corporations. This is where we are. The President said this generation has not been in this place before. So I proffered two questions in this new economic reality - cancel or ask for a reduction in MRSP. On the other forum, which I copied people are cancelling orders (and if enough are cancelled it could hurt Porsche very badly) and they are being praised for being financially astute. I suppose more people took umbrage at asking for a decrease as opposed to outright cancelling. Not sure why asking for a lower MRSP as opposed to cancelling outright was met with vitriol. I would think any company would prefer to avoid mass cancelling, and to take reduce profit margins and that the latter would be far more desirable to any company. Yes Porsche is a great car company, and I’m am a repeat customer. But that doesn’t mean they could take a little less profit to ensure they sell the car. I do not agree that my questions were egregious. I am not on here to attack any individual nor will I - Just arguments. I suppose I prefer to separate what someone is positing or claiming from their person. We can disagree without having to go personal attacks. But to each his own. Thanks for all of the responses and I wish everyone well - whether you understood my position or were critical of me as a person, my argument, or position. There are larger things at stake currently on whether I get my next sports car or not.
. Whether it is a virus or sub prime mortgage, the economic realities are the same - we are in a different financial position - both myself and Porsche. If we are all in together, then a small step from Porsche to recognize this, is not outlandish or exploitive. In fact, I would argue it would be negligent and irresponsible to my own family not to examine and explore both price reduction or cancelling my order. I did reach out to the GM at my dealership and he was excellent - as he has been all along. Governments and companies all over the world are trying to alleviate the financial burden. For example, personal income taxes have been deferred until August in Canada. General Motors have lowered its borrowing rate and financing term for their cars, mobile cellular offering deferred payments, free overages, and long distance charges And I could go on with other numerous examples. My inbox, like yours is full of them. Some economists are talking about a possible 20 per cent unemployment rate or a deeper recession than 2008. Not a huge ask to receive an email from Porsche/dealership with respect to most people’s 2nd largest financial purchase. When I am in meeting with engineers they talk about the 100 year storm. This is where we are economically. The fact is there is economic anxiety from both individuals and corporations. This is where we are. The President said this generation has not been in this place before. So I proffered two questions in this new economic reality - cancel or ask for a reduction in MRSP. On the other forum, which I copied people are cancelling orders (and if enough are cancelled it could hurt Porsche very badly) and they are being praised for being financially astute. I suppose more people took umbrage at asking for a decrease as opposed to outright cancelling. Not sure why asking for a lower MRSP as opposed to cancelling outright was met with vitriol. I would think any company would prefer to avoid mass cancelling, and to take reduce profit margins and that the latter would be far more desirable to any company. Yes Porsche is a great car company, and I’m am a repeat customer. But that doesn’t mean they could take a little less profit to ensure they sell the car. I do not agree that my questions were egregious. I am not on here to attack any individual nor will I - Just arguments. I suppose I prefer to separate what someone is positing or claiming from their person. We can disagree without having to go personal attacks. But to each his own. Thanks for all of the responses and I wish everyone well - whether you understood my position or were critical of me as a person, my argument, or position. There are larger things at stake currently on whether I get my next sports car or not.
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DFW01TT (06-07-2020)
03-18-2020, 02:37 PM
#72
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Thanks for your opening complimentary sentence and also thanks for the ad hominem attack .
Whether it is a virus or sub prime mortgage, the economic realities are the same - we are in a different financial position - both myself and Porsche. If we are all in together, then a small step from Porsche to recognize this, is not outlandish or exploitive. In fact, I would argue it would be negligent and irresponsible to my own family not to examine and explore both price reduction or cancelling my order. I did reach out to the GM at my dealership and he was excellent - as he has been all along. Governments and companies all over the world are trying to alleviate the financial burden.
For example, personal income taxes have been deferred until August in Canada. General Motors have lowered its borrowing rate and financing term for their cars, mobile cellular offering deferred payments, free overages, and long distance charges And I could go on with other numerous examples. My inbox, like yours is full of them. Some economists are talking about a possible 20 per cent unemployment rate or a deeper recession than 2008. Not a huge ask to receive an email from Porsche/dealership with respect to most people’s 2nd largest financial purchase.
When I am in meeting with engineers they talk about the 100 year storm. This is where we are economically. The fact is there is economic anxiety from both individuals and corporations. This is where we are. The President said this generation has not been in this place before. So I proffered two questions in this new economic reality - cancel or ask for a reduction in MRSP.
On the other forum, which I copied people are cancelling orders (and if enough are cancelled it could hurt Porsche very badly) and they are being praised for being financially astute. I suppose more people took umbrage at asking for a decrease as opposed to outright cancelling. Not sure why asking for a lower MRSP as opposed to cancelling outright was met with vitriol. I would think any company would prefer to avoid mass cancelling, and to take reduce profit margins and that the latter would be far more desirable to any company.
Yes Porsche is a great car company, and I’m am a repeat customer. But that doesn’t mean they could take a little less profit to ensure they sell the car. I do not agree that my questions were egregious. I am not on here to attack any individual nor will I - Just arguments. I suppose I prefer to separate what someone is positing or claiming from their person. We can disagree without having to go personal attacks. But to each his own. Thanks for all of the responses and I wish everyone well - whether you understood my position or were critical of me as a person, my argument, or position. There are larger things at stake currently on whether I get my next sports car or not.
.Whether it is a virus or sub prime mortgage, the economic realities are the same - we are in a different financial position - both myself and Porsche. If we are all in together, then a small step from Porsche to recognize this, is not outlandish or exploitive. In fact, I would argue it would be negligent and irresponsible to my own family not to examine and explore both price reduction or cancelling my order. I did reach out to the GM at my dealership and he was excellent - as he has been all along. Governments and companies all over the world are trying to alleviate the financial burden.
For example, personal income taxes have been deferred until August in Canada. General Motors have lowered its borrowing rate and financing term for their cars, mobile cellular offering deferred payments, free overages, and long distance charges And I could go on with other numerous examples. My inbox, like yours is full of them. Some economists are talking about a possible 20 per cent unemployment rate or a deeper recession than 2008. Not a huge ask to receive an email from Porsche/dealership with respect to most people’s 2nd largest financial purchase.
When I am in meeting with engineers they talk about the 100 year storm. This is where we are economically. The fact is there is economic anxiety from both individuals and corporations. This is where we are. The President said this generation has not been in this place before. So I proffered two questions in this new economic reality - cancel or ask for a reduction in MRSP.
On the other forum, which I copied people are cancelling orders (and if enough are cancelled it could hurt Porsche very badly) and they are being praised for being financially astute. I suppose more people took umbrage at asking for a decrease as opposed to outright cancelling. Not sure why asking for a lower MRSP as opposed to cancelling outright was met with vitriol. I would think any company would prefer to avoid mass cancelling, and to take reduce profit margins and that the latter would be far more desirable to any company.
Yes Porsche is a great car company, and I’m am a repeat customer. But that doesn’t mean they could take a little less profit to ensure they sell the car. I do not agree that my questions were egregious. I am not on here to attack any individual nor will I - Just arguments. I suppose I prefer to separate what someone is positing or claiming from their person. We can disagree without having to go personal attacks. But to each his own. Thanks for all of the responses and I wish everyone well - whether you understood my position or were critical of me as a person, my argument, or position. There are larger things at stake currently on whether I get my next sports car or not.
03-18-2020, 03:10 PM
#73
Can you at least let us know what you end up doing and what the dealer ends up doing? 
03-18-2020, 03:21 PM
#74
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Keep in mind the OP is a Canadian buyer. Much much different consumer laws up there. Canada does not allow a buyer to cancel a purchase. He'll certainly forfeit his deposit 100%. So, there's not extensive learnings here for a US buyer.
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blackholescion (03-18-2020)
03-18-2020, 04:40 PM
#75
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thank you - I have a deep appreciation of a grammarian at large . I was on a conference call while I was writing it. However, that doesn’t excuse the poor grammar. As opposed to my previous post with paragraphs,
this one without paragraphing made it difficult to read. Apologies.
. I was on a conference call while I was writing it. However, that doesn’t excuse the poor grammar. As opposed to my previous post with paragraphs,this one without paragraphing made it difficult to read. Apologies.