Gain 100HP with an intake manifold change?? - Cross post from Ferrari Chat
03-26-2016, 09:20 PM
#406
Rennlist Member
03-26-2016, 09:24 PM
#407
Former Sponsor
You were being kind Greg, try four exhaust systems (Ed's, Morgan's) three shock systems, (not naming names) skid plates ( many ), harnesses (5 after telling customers to buy from him). The SC was a pre owned unit dicklick promised to support 100% so we could bury the hatchet and cost me 2 weeks of work time as he kept sending the wrong parts and I swear he did that on purpose.
As to the intakes, if Carl produced one that was kissed by God himself, gave us 200 HP on a 4.5 I'd still not touch it.
As to the intakes, if Carl produced one that was kissed by God himself, gave us 200 HP on a 4.5 I'd still not touch it.
You had way more patience than me....I gave up, long ago.
03-26-2016, 09:31 PM
#408
Fixed It For Me
03-26-2016, 10:32 PM
#410
Rennlist Member
Sorry, dick lick made me laugh. Brought back some old memories. Now back to solving this simple issue....
03-27-2016, 05:45 AM
#411
Addict
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thats interesting.... what is the problem of the 044 pump and why is that a concern? isnt it a power related situation? seems the pump has had no issues running 335rwhp at 70psi or 375rwhp /420rwt with 37psi. by just rough calculations, why couldnt the pump handle what is expected from the 50-75hp gain on a stock 928S4.. after all, its just matching the mass flow of the air and it doesnt know if its a 6.5 liter or has pressure drop reductions on a S4 intake that gives the same flow density, right?
also, what is the problem with our fuel rails.. isnt there a way to use them on a after market lower intake manifold?
obviously, there were ALL these changes with Mark and Joes effots with their CF intake. they even were bridging the plenums with what looked like a garden hose... mafs made from 4" pvc pipe, merge pipes made from sewer drains, etc. it ran fab!
the failure was when things cracked and it went lean, not that the 044 pump was at fault, or was there an upgrade there too. i dont remember.
also, what is the problem with our fuel rails.. isnt there a way to use them on a after market lower intake manifold?
obviously, there were ALL these changes with Mark and Joes effots with their CF intake. they even were bridging the plenums with what looked like a garden hose... mafs made from 4" pvc pipe, merge pipes made from sewer drains, etc. it ran fab!
the failure was when things cracked and it went lean, not that the 044 pump was at fault, or was there an upgrade there too. i dont remember.
I hate to get involved with all the online drama, but the fuel delivery system can be a big deal. I'm not an expert at this stuff, so I've been working on it for 6 years on my car and still learning. I'm shooting for reliable and durable 500 rwhp with my S4 and have experimented with many different approaches. I'm now running an -8 AN supply line to modified stock fuel rails, 52 lb-hr injectors, stock fuel regulator (switched from a Weldon A2040 last year), and dual 10mm return lines through 2 fuel coolers to a -10 AN line to the fuel cell. I'm running a Bosch 040 in-tank fuel pump, with a switched (boost controlled with manual override) external Bosch 044 external pump in parallel. Along the way, I've tried many different fuel pumps (with and without a fuel pump control), fuel pressure regulators, fuel filters, fuel injectors, fuel sumps, fuel pick-ups, and fuel lines. It takes lots of time and money (over $6000) to get things working well. And that's just a part of getting an engine performing at it's best. I applaud Greg for all his work with the 928 and appreciate all his efforts, along with Tim Murphy, Jim Morton, Marc Thomas, and the late Tom Cloutier. It's a small world we live in, and it take us all to get the most out of our cars.
See http://928.jorj7.com/fuel for more info.
__________________
George
90 S4 Grand Prix White (Murf #5)
94 GTS 5-Speed Midnight Blue
06 Cayenne S Havanna/Sand Beige (PASM)
http://928.jorj7.com
03-27-2016, 12:42 PM
#412
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Well said George !! The thing about fabrication of mechanical parts is once it is done and someone else looks at it.....it all seems pretty simple, it looks "right" and almost easy. Thanks for sharing your experience.
03-27-2016, 05:50 PM
#413
Former Sponsor
To answer the question about using stock fuel rails: I do not have any issues with the volume. The 90 degree turns at both ends, to attach to the dampers and regulators, are extremely inconvenient for my use, since the dampers and regulators will no longer fit in the stock locations.
I may supply intake systems with just the basic intake, which will allow people to use their own injectors, dampers, rails, regulator, and plumbing. This would obviously keep the cost down and make sense on some of the more tame S4 applications, especially when people have already upgraded to larger injectors (24-30 pounders).
For my own use, I'm trying to "clean" things up a bit, with modern ideas and components, when possible.
I may supply intake systems with just the basic intake, which will allow people to use their own injectors, dampers, rails, regulator, and plumbing. This would obviously keep the cost down and make sense on some of the more tame S4 applications, especially when people have already upgraded to larger injectors (24-30 pounders).
For my own use, I'm trying to "clean" things up a bit, with modern ideas and components, when possible.
03-27-2016, 07:26 PM
#414
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Greg--
Is there a "relatively" convenient way to use a factory FPR at the rear of each fuel rail, with common supply from the front? Or will you need more pressure? It would seem that you could put the regulators almost anywhere conveninet back there, common up the return plumbing before the cooler, maybe using hard pipe. Or with hose and the regulators mounted to the firewall. Maybe parallel stock pumps, piped one to each rail, and a small balancing line at the front, for the highest output applications.
Is there a "relatively" convenient way to use a factory FPR at the rear of each fuel rail, with common supply from the front? Or will you need more pressure? It would seem that you could put the regulators almost anywhere conveninet back there, common up the return plumbing before the cooler, maybe using hard pipe. Or with hose and the regulators mounted to the firewall. Maybe parallel stock pumps, piped one to each rail, and a small balancing line at the front, for the highest output applications.
03-28-2016, 12:55 AM
#416
Former Sponsor
Greg--
Is there a "relatively" convenient way to use a factory FPR at the rear of each fuel rail, with common supply from the front? Or will you need more pressure? It would seem that you could put the regulators almost anywhere conveninet back there, common up the return plumbing before the cooler, maybe using hard pipe. Or with hose and the regulators mounted to the firewall. Maybe parallel stock pumps, piped one to each rail, and a small balancing line at the front, for the highest output applications.
Is there a "relatively" convenient way to use a factory FPR at the rear of each fuel rail, with common supply from the front? Or will you need more pressure? It would seem that you could put the regulators almost anywhere conveninet back there, common up the return plumbing before the cooler, maybe using hard pipe. Or with hose and the regulators mounted to the firewall. Maybe parallel stock pumps, piped one to each rail, and a small balancing line at the front, for the highest output applications.
Because none of the "insert" style" Bosch pressure regulators will "keep up" with an 044 pump at lower fuel consumption levels (important on a street car), that meant that each rail would have to have its own regulator....and because no two regulators are exactly the same, that meant that there would have to be a balancing tube between the two rails.
Suddenly "simple" and "clean" wasn't so simple or clean.
Working on plan "B"....or some letter other than "A".
03-28-2016, 10:48 AM
#417
Rainman
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My original goal (or Han's goal) was to have both the dampers and regulator in the rails to reduce the amount of plumbing required and make everything a bit more tidy.
Because none of the "insert" style" Bosch pressure regulators will "keep up" with an 044 pump at lower fuel consumption levels (important on a street car), that meant that each rail would have to have its own regulator....and because no two regulators are exactly the same, that meant that there would have to be a balancing tube between the two rails.
Suddenly "simple" and "clean" wasn't so simple or clean.
Working on plan "B"....or some letter other than "A".
Because none of the "insert" style" Bosch pressure regulators will "keep up" with an 044 pump at lower fuel consumption levels (important on a street car), that meant that each rail would have to have its own regulator....and because no two regulators are exactly the same, that meant that there would have to be a balancing tube between the two rails.
Suddenly "simple" and "clean" wasn't so simple or clean.
Working on plan "B"....or some letter other than "A".
Stock pump, parallel with an -044?
Put the -044 on a trigger for heavy throttle/manifold pressure.
03-28-2016, 12:31 PM
#418
Former Sponsor
However, I try not to make any patches for problems and tend to address things at the source. The issue is inadequate fuel return from regulator. I think I'd rather solve the problem there.
03-28-2016, 02:21 PM
#419
Rennlist Member
My original goal (or Han's goal) was to have both the dampers and regulator in the rails to reduce the amount of plumbing required and make everything a bit more tidy.
Because none of the "insert" style" Bosch pressure regulators will "keep up" with an 044 pump at lower fuel consumption levels (important on a street car), that meant that each rail would have to have its own regulator....and because no two regulators are exactly the same, that meant that there would have to be a balancing tube between the two rails.
Suddenly "simple" and "clean" wasn't so simple or clean.
Working on plan "B"....or some letter other than "A".
Because none of the "insert" style" Bosch pressure regulators will "keep up" with an 044 pump at lower fuel consumption levels (important on a street car), that meant that each rail would have to have its own regulator....and because no two regulators are exactly the same, that meant that there would have to be a balancing tube between the two rails.
Suddenly "simple" and "clean" wasn't so simple or clean.
Working on plan "B"....or some letter other than "A".
Greg--
Is there a "relatively" convenient way to use a factory FPR at the rear of each fuel rail, with common supply from the front? Or will you need more pressure? It would seem that you could put the regulators almost anywhere conveninet back there, common up the return plumbing before the cooler, maybe using hard pipe. Or with hose and the regulators mounted to the firewall. Maybe parallel stock pumps, piped one to each rail, and a small balancing line at the front, for the highest output applications.
Is there a "relatively" convenient way to use a factory FPR at the rear of each fuel rail, with common supply from the front? Or will you need more pressure? It would seem that you could put the regulators almost anywhere conveninet back there, common up the return plumbing before the cooler, maybe using hard pipe. Or with hose and the regulators mounted to the firewall. Maybe parallel stock pumps, piped one to each rail, and a small balancing line at the front, for the highest output applications.
To answer the question about using stock fuel rails: I do not have any issues with the volume. The 90 degree turns at both ends, to attach to the dampers and regulators, are extremely inconvenient for my use, since the dampers and regulators will no longer fit in the stock locations.
I may supply intake systems with just the basic intake, which will allow people to use their own injectors, dampers, rails, regulator, and plumbing. This would obviously keep the cost down and make sense on some of the more tame S4 applications, especially when people have already upgraded to larger injectors (24-30 pounders).
For my own use, I'm trying to "clean" things up a bit, with modern ideas and components, when possible.
I may supply intake systems with just the basic intake, which will allow people to use their own injectors, dampers, rails, regulator, and plumbing. This would obviously keep the cost down and make sense on some of the more tame S4 applications, especially when people have already upgraded to larger injectors (24-30 pounders).
For my own use, I'm trying to "clean" things up a bit, with modern ideas and components, when possible.
Mark,
I hate to get involved with all the online drama, but the fuel delivery system can be a big deal. I'm not an expert at this stuff, so I've been working on it for 6 years on my car and still learning. I'm shooting for reliable and durable 500 rwhp with my S4 and have experimented with many different approaches. I'm now running an -8 AN supply line to modified stock fuel rails, 52 lb-hr injectors, stock fuel regulator (switched from a Weldon A2040 last year), and dual 10mm return lines through 2 fuel coolers to a -10 AN line to the fuel cell. I'm running a Bosch 040 in-tank fuel pump, with a switched (boost controlled with manual override) external Bosch 044 external pump in parallel. Along the way, I've tried many different fuel pumps (with and without a fuel pump control), fuel pressure regulators, fuel filters, fuel injectors, fuel sumps, fuel pick-ups, and fuel lines. It takes lots of time and money (over $6000) to get things working well. And that's just a part of getting an engine performing at it's best. I applaud Greg for all his work with the 928 and appreciate all his efforts, along with Tim Murphy, Jim Morton, Marc Thomas, and the late Tom Cloutier. It's a small world we live in, and it take us all to get the most out of our cars.
See http://928.jorj7.com/fuel for more info.
__________________
George
90 S4 Grand Prix White (Murf #5)
94 GTS 5-Speed Midnight Blue
06 Cayenne S Havanna/Sand Beige (PASM)
http://928.jorj7.com
I hate to get involved with all the online drama, but the fuel delivery system can be a big deal. I'm not an expert at this stuff, so I've been working on it for 6 years on my car and still learning. I'm shooting for reliable and durable 500 rwhp with my S4 and have experimented with many different approaches. I'm now running an -8 AN supply line to modified stock fuel rails, 52 lb-hr injectors, stock fuel regulator (switched from a Weldon A2040 last year), and dual 10mm return lines through 2 fuel coolers to a -10 AN line to the fuel cell. I'm running a Bosch 040 in-tank fuel pump, with a switched (boost controlled with manual override) external Bosch 044 external pump in parallel. Along the way, I've tried many different fuel pumps (with and without a fuel pump control), fuel pressure regulators, fuel filters, fuel injectors, fuel sumps, fuel pick-ups, and fuel lines. It takes lots of time and money (over $6000) to get things working well. And that's just a part of getting an engine performing at it's best. I applaud Greg for all his work with the 928 and appreciate all his efforts, along with Tim Murphy, Jim Morton, Marc Thomas, and the late Tom Cloutier. It's a small world we live in, and it take us all to get the most out of our cars.
See http://928.jorj7.com/fuel for more info.
__________________
George
90 S4 Grand Prix White (Murf #5)
94 GTS 5-Speed Midnight Blue
06 Cayenne S Havanna/Sand Beige (PASM)
http://928.jorj7.com
sounds like you have a "push for pass" approach for fuel flow which is interesting and does sound like it would be a lot of work to develop and implement . (to work, be safe and provide the fuel demands of 500rwhp)
03-28-2016, 02:40 PM
#420
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
some Japanese cars (RX7 turbo, MR2, etc) have a "fuel pump resistor pack"...runs the pump at 9v or so for most driving and then goes full 12-14V at a certain TPS/MAP point.
their way of getting long life and better economy from a high-flow pump,. at low load.
and, they're pretty small (grey thing) so they could fit anywhere, even in a 928 engine bay
and here's a wiring diagram...looks like a relay+resistor combo...pump normally gets powered through resistor, until the relay coil trips and closes the 'direct' current path.
http://www.rx7club.com/attachments/g...p_resistor.jpg