The Aging Demographics Of Club Racing Today.....
07-21-2016, 04:49 PM
#91
I'm in....
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Originally Posted by Glen
Much to the chagrin of science.
We get faster as we get older!
We get faster as we get older!
07-21-2016, 06:36 PM
#92
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I'm sure it's already been said, but the answer is: because Porsche.
These cars are now stupid expensive to maintain, so anyone that isn't predisposed to the brand (history, family, etc) would be insane to start here. Unsurprisingly, if you attend events geared more towards BMW or Honda the demos actually skew younger.
I'm a multi-generational Porsche kid that has the luxury of a basically open wallet and even I've become disenfranchised with it. I started DE'ing at 26 and moved to club racing at 28 -- I was and still am one of the younger guys on the grid but will say I've always felt very welcomed and encouraged by the older drivers. Not sure why this would not be the case elsewhere.
My problem has become the comparable cost eats into the fun. All my non-racecar p-cars have been mothballed in favor of British marquees, and the race cars are getting less and less attention as **** keeps breaking (or blowing up in my case). I've sat on a motor rebuild for two months not because I don't have the funds, but more out of a silent protest "to myself" about the astronomical bills generated by these cars.
That said, anyone claiming you can have just as much fun for half the cost by running a cheaper car is wrong. I began to think like that a year ago, when I ran a race weekend in a BMW and Honda. Got out of the car - smile ear to ear - and thought to myself this is it, this is better. That notion was obliterated when I ran a test and tune of the p-cars vs Honda/BMW back to back; still had smiles, but the Porsche was worlds apart. Same can be said for racing vs DE, but not interested in infuriating the keyboard pundits at this point.
Long story short, kids don't run Porsche's because they'd be insane to start on this platform......or if they do they quickly understand the implications of doing so.
These cars are now stupid expensive to maintain, so anyone that isn't predisposed to the brand (history, family, etc) would be insane to start here. Unsurprisingly, if you attend events geared more towards BMW or Honda the demos actually skew younger.
I'm a multi-generational Porsche kid that has the luxury of a basically open wallet and even I've become disenfranchised with it. I started DE'ing at 26 and moved to club racing at 28 -- I was and still am one of the younger guys on the grid but will say I've always felt very welcomed and encouraged by the older drivers. Not sure why this would not be the case elsewhere.
My problem has become the comparable cost eats into the fun. All my non-racecar p-cars have been mothballed in favor of British marquees, and the race cars are getting less and less attention as **** keeps breaking (or blowing up in my case). I've sat on a motor rebuild for two months not because I don't have the funds, but more out of a silent protest "to myself" about the astronomical bills generated by these cars.
That said, anyone claiming you can have just as much fun for half the cost by running a cheaper car is wrong. I began to think like that a year ago, when I ran a race weekend in a BMW and Honda. Got out of the car - smile ear to ear - and thought to myself this is it, this is better. That notion was obliterated when I ran a test and tune of the p-cars vs Honda/BMW back to back; still had smiles, but the Porsche was worlds apart. Same can be said for racing vs DE, but not interested in infuriating the keyboard pundits at this point.
Long story short, kids don't run Porsche's because they'd be insane to start on this platform......or if they do they quickly understand the implications of doing so.
07-21-2016, 10:37 PM
#93
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When all of you Old Farts stop racing, just give us younger guys good prices on your stuff. We will keep it running. 
Now, if you want crazy money for your stuff, us younger guys will just wait for the dementia to set in and lowball you. :P
J/K-
Now, if you want crazy money for your stuff, us younger guys will just wait for the dementia to set in and lowball you.
:P J/K-
07-21-2016, 10:49 PM
#94
07-22-2016, 01:48 PM
#95
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Hi Todd, I still definitely attend PCA events and I appreciate the the positive feedback about the group. I will be sure to note my experiences again as I continue to encounter them. Congratulations on becoming a provisional instructor. I, too, am in the process of obtaining instructor status but not with PCA. Maybe next year I'll be on their track.
I would like to point out though that your experience is somewhat different since you have established yourself within the PCA group. I decided to share my experience as an outsider. My aim is to provide feedback and hopefully have others use this feedback. Obviously my experience hasn't deterred me as I'm still running with PCA, and I'm NOT saying that PCA needs to bend over backwards to open their arms to everyone. It was more of just one person's experience and food for thought. I wanted to share my experience to answer the question about the aging demographic. We all know that 10,000 baby boomers are turning 65 every day and will continue to do so for the next 17 years. So fresh blood is certainly needed to keep things going and we all want that for sure.
Bottom line is I see others clubs as competition - all competing for the same participants. Market share has limited growth on year-over-year basis and when more solutions are being offered at more attractive rates you can expect a hard fought battle to win people over. I do like the new spec cayman series that has been added for 2016. It's a great start for utilizing a newer vehicle with limited modification. In any case I'll be sure to say next time I see your car.
I would like to point out though that your experience is somewhat different since you have established yourself within the PCA group. I decided to share my experience as an outsider. My aim is to provide feedback and hopefully have others use this feedback. Obviously my experience hasn't deterred me as I'm still running with PCA, and I'm NOT saying that PCA needs to bend over backwards to open their arms to everyone. It was more of just one person's experience and food for thought. I wanted to share my experience to answer the question about the aging demographic. We all know that 10,000 baby boomers are turning 65 every day and will continue to do so for the next 17 years. So fresh blood is certainly needed to keep things going and we all want that for sure.
Bottom line is I see others clubs as competition - all competing for the same participants. Market share has limited growth on year-over-year basis and when more solutions are being offered at more attractive rates you can expect a hard fought battle to win people over. I do like the new spec cayman series that has been added for 2016. It's a great start for utilizing a newer vehicle with limited modification. In any case I'll be sure to say next time I see your car.
PCA's Spec Cayman class looks like a lot of fun. My car was used as the test bed last year to test out the new JRZ suspension and Toyo tires. I raced against two SPCs at Sebring this past year and they were fast so that may be a good path for you. I would have to take too much off of my car to get into SPC so I made the decision to stay in prepared I.
Regarding your comment about coming up through the PCA path - while that is true no one at my first race knew who I was so that didn't really matter. As a matter of fact while my region (CVR) has a lot of accomplished racers, and a huge winning history, it seems like a lot of the racers don't do many DEs so it wasn't like I knew them well. My point is that I don't think the people I met for the first time cared if I was with PCA or had a race license based on another series. They were just friendly.
See about registering for a CVR event some time this year - especially if it is at Lime Rock. After the day is over we get together at the tower for beers and food. It is a great group of people and perhaps you will feel differently.
My experience with PCA is probably a little different then most here so I'll give another $.02.
I started doing DEs with PCA in 2001 (I was 39). At the time I was a Delaware region member and they didn't do any DEs so my first ones were with Zone 2, Potomac, Chesapeake and a few others.
Had a couple of kids in my early 40s and moved to FL in 2005. There I was a member of Suncoast region and I ran with them, 4 or five other regions, Chin, PBOC and a couple trips back up to VIR to run with zone 2. I went to the PCA National instructors school in 2008 and started instructing, moved back to PA and joined RTR and started club racing in 2012.
Through all of that time I've run with and/or instructed with over 15 regions and I've found friendly and helpful people in all of them. Yes there were a few aholes but that's to expected in any large group. I've had people help me fix things, lend/give me parts and offer any help they could. When I blew my engine at MMC a couple of weeks ago no less then five of my competitors reached out to offer help.
I started doing DEs with PCA in 2001 (I was 39). At the time I was a Delaware region member and they didn't do any DEs so my first ones were with Zone 2, Potomac, Chesapeake and a few others.
Had a couple of kids in my early 40s and moved to FL in 2005. There I was a member of Suncoast region and I ran with them, 4 or five other regions, Chin, PBOC and a couple trips back up to VIR to run with zone 2. I went to the PCA National instructors school in 2008 and started instructing, moved back to PA and joined RTR and started club racing in 2012.
Through all of that time I've run with and/or instructed with over 15 regions and I've found friendly and helpful people in all of them. Yes there were a few aholes but that's to expected in any large group. I've had people help me fix things, lend/give me parts and offer any help they could. When I blew my engine at MMC a couple of weeks ago no less then five of my competitors reached out to offer help.
I was totally bored of DE last year after 2 years of doing it and started racing this year
All due respect DE is nothing like racing, I can text during a DE session - DE is about time to chat cars which is cool, but it's not comparative to racing - I'm also certain club racing is a joke compared to pro racing - I just don't have that context
All due respect DE is nothing like racing, I can text during a DE session - DE is about time to chat cars which is cool, but it's not comparative to racing - I'm also certain club racing is a joke compared to pro racing - I just don't have that context
Since going racing I find DE totally relaxing. To me DE is where I hang out with my friends, try some new things on track, and have fun. If someone in front of me is slower I normally pass them, and give a Sterling Moss type wave of thanks, and move on. I saw old videos of him doing that during races and always thought that showed a lot of class so I try to emulate that.
Many people that I race with do not like DEs - preferring open track days. I do open track days as well to practice before a race. But to me a DE is a social event - even more so than a race weekend where there is added stress of trying to get a good result. I love a good DE day!
I still remember my first DEs and being in complete awe of the fast guys. That is why I am so excited to instruct. I still remember that feeling and I want to help the new people get over that first hurdle and understand what they need to do to get better. I'm never going to compete with the professional instructors but if I can bring someone from HPDE1 to HPDE2 I will consider that a good day!
07-22-2016, 03:06 PM
#96
PCA has been an amazing Club to me. So many of the most valuable relationships I've developed over the years have their roots in PCA and other driving venues. My lawyers, doctors, electricians, best friends etc all from Driving groups- . What a wonderful network we have the opportunity to take advantage of. We joke that it's an eating & drinking club and occasionally we get to drive. For many DE guys later years spark the racing desire. Another outlet to fine tune their driving skills. Some in this thread had some negative experiences. I'd be introspective. In the NE all the groups I've run with- It's all about the people. We are all so lucky.
07-22-2016, 08:44 PM
#98
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28 yo and counting.
On my 2nd race season with PCA club racing.
Started DE back in 2010. Instructor in 2016.
I love to give back, help people leaning how to drive a car safe and fast.
Unfortnatly, i dont really see any folks in my DE who would go for racing. That's a shame.
On my 2nd race season with PCA club racing.
Started DE back in 2010. Instructor in 2016.
I love to give back, help people leaning how to drive a car safe and fast.
Unfortnatly, i dont really see any folks in my DE who would go for racing. That's a shame.
07-22-2016, 10:11 PM
#99
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Many young folks are getting their feet wet for several years with DE/auto-x and take a break when they have infants. This isn't yacht racing or flying aircraft, but it's still very expensive by working class standards.
I do engineering for a living, so I fall under the general umbrella of white collar working class jobs. That's far ahead of an average income in our country. If mine were the only income, to consider racing I'd have to pick a Miata, Honda, or similar, and for that I would need to both delay retirement and give up most non-free hobbies - both for myself and for my spouse. My wife works and earns far more, so I have a lot more options than my peers.
I met some guys at a recent PCA DE - they pooled resources to make it work - perhaps that will happen more and allow more people to enter the sport. They co-owned and maintained three (spec or nearly so) Miatas, and at any given day two of the cars were up and running. Seat time was shared and costs were manageable, and if that weren't the case they'd be unable to enjoy the sport. And I don't think any of them have kids yet, so that was just to get over the money hurdle. It's sad that youth is rare in club racing, but with the (time and money) costs considered, I hope it's a sign many young people have better priorities and will join us when resources allow it.
Personally I feel there are many priorities that should be met before the sport of racing. They'll all differ by family, but just thinking in terms of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, racing probably typically fits into the self-actualization category for one family member. It also demands a lot of the family's total resources (at least time). If it pulls a spouse or child down a rung on that hierarchy of needs, it's a selfish pursuit that may not be worth the sacrifice. My personal opinion - YMMV - is that if you aren't ready to make that type of sacrifice, you may be happier if you delay having a family.
I do engineering for a living, so I fall under the general umbrella of white collar working class jobs. That's far ahead of an average income in our country. If mine were the only income, to consider racing I'd have to pick a Miata, Honda, or similar, and for that I would need to both delay retirement and give up most non-free hobbies - both for myself and for my spouse. My wife works and earns far more, so I have a lot more options than my peers.
I met some guys at a recent PCA DE - they pooled resources to make it work - perhaps that will happen more and allow more people to enter the sport. They co-owned and maintained three (spec or nearly so) Miatas, and at any given day two of the cars were up and running. Seat time was shared and costs were manageable, and if that weren't the case they'd be unable to enjoy the sport. And I don't think any of them have kids yet, so that was just to get over the money hurdle. It's sad that youth is rare in club racing, but with the (time and money) costs considered, I hope it's a sign many young people have better priorities and will join us when resources allow it.
Personally I feel there are many priorities that should be met before the sport of racing. They'll all differ by family, but just thinking in terms of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, racing probably typically fits into the self-actualization category for one family member. It also demands a lot of the family's total resources (at least time). If it pulls a spouse or child down a rung on that hierarchy of needs, it's a selfish pursuit that may not be worth the sacrifice. My personal opinion - YMMV - is that if you aren't ready to make that type of sacrifice, you may be happier if you delay having a family.
07-22-2016, 11:06 PM
#100
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28 yo and counting.
On my 2nd race season with PCA club racing.
Started DE back in 2010. Instructor in 2016.
I love to give back, help people leaning how to drive a car safe and fast.
Unfortnatly, i dont really see any folks in my DE who would go for racing. That's a shame.
On my 2nd race season with PCA club racing.
Started DE back in 2010. Instructor in 2016.
I love to give back, help people leaning how to drive a car safe and fast.
Unfortnatly, i dont really see any folks in my DE who would go for racing. That's a shame.
07-25-2016, 01:35 AM
#104
I met some guys at a recent PCA DE - they pooled resources to make it work - perhaps that will happen more and allow more people to enter the sport. They co-owned and maintained three (spec or nearly so) Miatas, and at any given day two of the cars were up and running. Seat time was shared and costs were manageable, and if that weren't the case they'd be unable to enjoy the sport. And I don't think any of them have kids yet, so that was just to get over the money hurdle. It's sad that youth is rare in club racing, but with the (time and money) costs considered, I hope it's a sign many young people have better priorities and will join us when resources allow it.
With respect to PCA racing, the pricing of the cars is just crazy. It seems much easier to find an inexpensive E36 M3 car to convert than most p-cars.
07-27-2016, 02:56 PM
#105
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last 15 years have seen very few things break.. things that did like water pumps or transmissions (one transmission break in 15years of racing it)
are easy fixes and the list provides great guidance to do it yourself.
just wrapping up another season of racing and all my costs all year long were only gas, oil and a set of brake pads with a few sets of used tires.
However , this year i bought my first set of new tires and it gave me .5 seconds.... wow, did i really need to spend that $1400?? probably not.
Just this past weekend out of 60 cars in the PCA race, it was in the top 3 as far as time goes. now, that is bang for the buck when you can build my car all day long for under $20k complete!!