The Aging Demographics Of Club Racing Today.....
07-19-2016, 08:56 PM
#61
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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I really like this topic. I often questioned why more young people aren’t racing. Here are a few of my observations. This is coming from an outsider looking in and someone who has been doing DE for 5+ years. I hope you don’t mind if I share – any feedback is good feedback.
I think there is also a perception problem and openness to others. I do recall speaking to a Porsche owner about his car (997 GT3) and I mistakenly made the comment that I hope to get one someday – only to receive a response, “you’re too young.” That response tells me that even if you wanted to see younger folks in your races there would be some jealousy or envy in the “young crowd” because somehow we didn’t pay our dues. I would summarize this as close minded. It’s very apparent too when you have a discussion with older drivers and younger drivers.
Assuming you got a PCA race license and wanted to run a race you’ll soon realize It’s a huge time commitment, especially if drivers are running their own cars. The reason for why you see more of an older crowd is not necessarily money, but time. For someone mid-career, having to lose a day of work to travel and then another one to have practice and qualifying is a huge time commitment (this is even before the weekend – if it is a weekend race). Then should something happen during the race (bad drivers or simply a racing incident), you’ll see even more frustration. It only takes one major incident for someone to see the return isn’t worth it. As the older crowd can understand, companies these days don’t always offer generous amounts of time off.
Racing doesn’t draw a crowd because coverage is pretty limited and no one gives a damn who the people are. Coverage from local chapters is poor and reporting about what happened is boring - nothing that’s written is exciting enough for someone to take action. Why should they be interested? But let’s assume someone does come out to watch a race in person and let’s also assume they don’t know anyone. They make the 2-3 hour drive to the race track and see the paddock filled with trailers, cars, pop-up tents and company banners waving. However, should that person go up and try to speak with anyone they’ll be brushed off immediately. The veterans don’t wish to share their “secrets” by talking to you about the car, the team managers are “busy” making sure the mechanics are getting things done, the mechanics are busy checking the cars and drivers don’t care about spectators. To that end there’s very little reason for anyone to further support a group when met with little to no reception. If you’re trying to grow and groom future PCA members, especially for racing then you’re in for a long hard fight with this mentality.
On top of that the community is hugely fragmented and is no longer there to support one another, but rather who can spend the most money to win. Until there’s a better format that allows for cars to run against each other with limited prep (primarily safety, roll cage, brakes, fluid and tires) youngsters are better off running with Miata’s or other cheaper Enduro series. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all about letting the privileged run against each other, but if you’re looking for new blood you need to find a better alternative.
In the end, racing is not like training for a Marathon. You can’t just practice and then decide to do a race. It’s a much deeper commitment. And with heavy competition from other clubs, limited interaction and a narrow community it’s very easy to see why more aren’t participating.
I think there is also a perception problem and openness to others. I do recall speaking to a Porsche owner about his car (997 GT3) and I mistakenly made the comment that I hope to get one someday – only to receive a response, “you’re too young.” That response tells me that even if you wanted to see younger folks in your races there would be some jealousy or envy in the “young crowd” because somehow we didn’t pay our dues. I would summarize this as close minded. It’s very apparent too when you have a discussion with older drivers and younger drivers.
Assuming you got a PCA race license and wanted to run a race you’ll soon realize It’s a huge time commitment, especially if drivers are running their own cars. The reason for why you see more of an older crowd is not necessarily money, but time. For someone mid-career, having to lose a day of work to travel and then another one to have practice and qualifying is a huge time commitment (this is even before the weekend – if it is a weekend race). Then should something happen during the race (bad drivers or simply a racing incident), you’ll see even more frustration. It only takes one major incident for someone to see the return isn’t worth it. As the older crowd can understand, companies these days don’t always offer generous amounts of time off.
Racing doesn’t draw a crowd because coverage is pretty limited and no one gives a damn who the people are. Coverage from local chapters is poor and reporting about what happened is boring - nothing that’s written is exciting enough for someone to take action. Why should they be interested? But let’s assume someone does come out to watch a race in person and let’s also assume they don’t know anyone. They make the 2-3 hour drive to the race track and see the paddock filled with trailers, cars, pop-up tents and company banners waving. However, should that person go up and try to speak with anyone they’ll be brushed off immediately. The veterans don’t wish to share their “secrets” by talking to you about the car, the team managers are “busy” making sure the mechanics are getting things done, the mechanics are busy checking the cars and drivers don’t care about spectators. To that end there’s very little reason for anyone to further support a group when met with little to no reception. If you’re trying to grow and groom future PCA members, especially for racing then you’re in for a long hard fight with this mentality.
On top of that the community is hugely fragmented and is no longer there to support one another, but rather who can spend the most money to win. Until there’s a better format that allows for cars to run against each other with limited prep (primarily safety, roll cage, brakes, fluid and tires) youngsters are better off running with Miata’s or other cheaper Enduro series. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all about letting the privileged run against each other, but if you’re looking for new blood you need to find a better alternative.
In the end, racing is not like training for a Marathon. You can’t just practice and then decide to do a race. It’s a much deeper commitment. And with heavy competition from other clubs, limited interaction and a narrow community it’s very easy to see why more aren’t participating.
First off, I have never met anyone who had the "go away kid you're too young" type attitude. It is quite the opposite. If you are basing your opinion of all PCA regions in your area off of one guy you are doing yourself a disservice. While the general age of the paddock is a little older there are some "kids" as well as kids of current drivers. The fact is bringing a Porsche to the track takes some money, but I don't think there is any discrimination at all.
When I started driving with PCA I was running my 1987 944T. A 944 is about the cheapest Porsche track car out there and no one treated me any different than a guy with a cup car. People respect skill, work and determination. Watch a SPB or 944 race sometime - those guys have skill and they are having a ball. As a matter of fact those guys are smarter because they can win on a budget and have fun. Sure there are people who spend their way to victory lane but that only gets you so far unless you have some skill as well.
I'll tell you that when I went to my first club race at Sebring in 2015 the experienced racers were nothing short of awesome - and still are. At one of the racer meetings they made all the new drivers stand up. The whole weekend strangers would recognize me as one of those new drivers and come up to me and ask how I was doing, give me advice, and offer words of encouragement. They could not have been more open or helpful!
Insofar as coverage is concerned, it is given to the people that care about it - the racers, their families and friends. Within 24 hours of a race tons of videos are uploaded to youtube, posted on Rennlist and Facebook, and the debates start!
Time? How do you have any more time in a Miata than a Porsche? Racing is a commitment to time. But for many of us it is our vacation, or at least it is an excuse to combine a small vacation with a race. At this year's Lime Rock race I had a friend from high school fly up with his daughter and our families made a weekend out of it and then proceeded to extend the vacation into MA.
Your whole paragraph about not sharing secrets, no one wanting to talk, mechanics too busy to talk, is just so off the wall not true I don't know where to begin. There are times when everyone is busy, but after a race all anyone wants to do is talk! Secrets? Not sharing? I've seen people loan parts and tools to competitors time and time again. There may be a little gamesmanship in regards to certain aspects of the race but even there it is a fine line. There is a ton of sharing.
Most importantly, your comment about not being able to train and than race is flat out wrong based on my own personal experience. My first day on track 9 years ago and I was God awful! I thought I knew something and the reality was that I sucked! I did a handful of track days a year and didn't progress too much.
About 4 years ago I got my 944 and started racking up track days and getting some good instruction through PCA. When I stated I wanted to go racing CVR (my region) started giving me instructors who had racing experience and started bringing me along. They were supportive and helpful every step of the way. I WORKED at it. Picked people's brains. Bought them lunch so I could talk with them. Hired professional coaches when they were available. Watched youtube videos. Read articles. I TRAINED for it!
Lastly, in addition to all the above I just want to say I also put my money where my mouth is. This year I have been in training to become a PCA instructor and I was just made a provisional instructor this past weekend. Why did I do this? Because I want to give back. I want to encourage someone else. If someone only wants to do DE that's awesome, but I hope to find that person who eventually wants to go racing.
I hope you come out to a PCA event again because your experience does not sound normal to me and I would hate for anyone to read your post and think that was the norm. I'm no one special in the paddock and I have never been treated with anything but respect. I've made awesome friends and had great experiences all involving DE and club racing through PCA. There is no reason why that should not be the experience for anyone else.
07-19-2016, 09:13 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
This year I have been in training to become a PCA instructor and I was just made a provisional instructor this past weekend. Why did I do this? Because I want to give back. I want to encourage someone else. If someone only wants to do DE that's awesome, but I hope to find that person who eventually wants to go racing.
I hope you come out to a PCA event again because your experience does not sound normal to me and I would hate for anyone to read your post and think that was the norm. I'm no one special in the paddock and I have never been treated with anything but respect. I've made awesome friends and had great experiences all involving DE and club racing through PCA. There is no reason why that should not be the experience for anyone else.
I hope you come out to a PCA event again because your experience does not sound normal to me and I would hate for anyone to read your post and think that was the norm. I'm no one special in the paddock and I have never been treated with anything but respect. I've made awesome friends and had great experiences all involving DE and club racing through PCA. There is no reason why that should not be the experience for anyone else.
07-19-2016, 09:54 PM
#63
Rennlist Member
Even worse, just read some of the posts form the racers in this thread, like Kibort above, insinuating that guys who want to drive high-powered cars are poseurs and probably can't handle the power-saying this on a Porsche forum of all places.... I have to agree that too many Porsche racers are too parochial.
But I've also had the opposite happen to me with a BMW club DE hierarchy making disparaging comments about a Turbo Porsche running with them, and I can only interpret as envy, sadly. Even though I always loved driving with them. My sense is that this clique mentality is true across most marques.
In many ways, Porsche is becoming Ferrari-ized. It seems the budget needed to club race modern Porsches is just too much for those of us who work for a living, especially with other family/budget/time commitments.
But I've also had the opposite happen to me with a BMW club DE hierarchy making disparaging comments about a Turbo Porsche running with them, and I can only interpret as envy, sadly. Even though I always loved driving with them. My sense is that this clique mentality is true across most marques.
In many ways, Porsche is becoming Ferrari-ized. It seems the budget needed to club race modern Porsches is just too much for those of us who work for a living, especially with other family/budget/time commitments.
07-19-2016, 09:55 PM
#64
Drifting
What an interesting thread considering the different perspectives and experiences. Any form of motorsport participation is costly compared with most other leisure activities, regardless of level and not just monetary wise. When I was racing a 968 as a new Club Racer it was relatively a cheaper entry to PCA Racing but having a young family and trying to grow professionally made the overall cost high, time away, time prepping the car, and the reduced capacity to do the "normal" family things. In the end it's when those major family obligations decrease, your a bit more established career wise that you can explore and dedicate yourself to the more demanding activities like motorsports. No wonder there's a lot of grey in the paddock......... Best scenario, come from a wealthy family, have lots of free time and channel that passion for motorsports before you get grey, you'll be the exception. For the rest of us, get what you can, enjoy it and appreciate the fact that most will never get to sit in the cockpit of any type of race craft.
07-19-2016, 11:26 PM
#65
Burning Brakes
I find racers in general to be an outgoing group (PCA, SCCA, NASA, WRL). Ask about their cars - or speak to their crew/mechanics about the cars and about racing and you will usually find people more than willing to chat. Hell - who doesn't like hearing compliments about their car - or talking about their car.
Can you meet ********? Sure - they exist all over the world, but I find the vast majority to be pleasant.
PCA can be very expensive depending on where you live. Being in CO, I have 1 local club race at HPR, Hastings is 6 hours away, Hallett 10, TX tracks are a 15 hour haul, Miller is 12 or so depending upon which route you take. So that eats time. I control cost by sleeping in the trailer most times and bringing food with me. Occasionally the family comes along to a far race and we make a mini vacation out of it.
Since time is a big hurdle, I do a lot of racing with other organizations. I'll do 5 weekends in-state with NASA this year (fields ranging from 3 to 8 SPBs). It's fun and cheap and only a 3 day weekend.
SCCA became an option for me this year in the SPB. I'm less than enthralled with SCCA - primarily because it seems to be a beaurocratic organization. Te racers are cool though. And again - local, 3 day weekend.
Get a couple WRL events in-state and I hit 2-3 out-of-state. Time commitment is larger, but doable especially when the cost of the event is spread among co-drivers (I drive for free).
Is all of this expensive? Yes and No. PCA is an older demo (no surprise - Porsches, even Boxsters, can get expensive to campaign and maintain)).
NASA is much younger (stock cars, spec Z, miata, bmw, American iron, etc - all have lower purchase prices and maintenance/parts expenses). Heck - at almost every NASA event we hear some quip during pre-race drivers meeting about watching out for the expensive Porsches.
And WRL (or Lemons, Chump) is much less expensive - damn near cheap if you want to go that route.
So options abound. I think for me personally - the biggest issue was knowledge that this is doable. I didn't grow up in a house where cars were a thing. We never went to races. At 40 I bought my 911 because I always wanted one. It took a neighbor to introduce me to DE (I was floored that this existed) and quickly was bitten and now at 46 am in full year 2 of wheel to wheel comp.
Had I known about DE and racing earlier I would have found a way (Miata, lemons, something).
Can you meet ********? Sure - they exist all over the world, but I find the vast majority to be pleasant.
PCA can be very expensive depending on where you live. Being in CO, I have 1 local club race at HPR, Hastings is 6 hours away, Hallett 10, TX tracks are a 15 hour haul, Miller is 12 or so depending upon which route you take. So that eats time. I control cost by sleeping in the trailer most times and bringing food with me. Occasionally the family comes along to a far race and we make a mini vacation out of it.
Since time is a big hurdle, I do a lot of racing with other organizations. I'll do 5 weekends in-state with NASA this year (fields ranging from 3 to 8 SPBs). It's fun and cheap and only a 3 day weekend.
SCCA became an option for me this year in the SPB. I'm less than enthralled with SCCA - primarily because it seems to be a beaurocratic organization. Te racers are cool though. And again - local, 3 day weekend.
Get a couple WRL events in-state and I hit 2-3 out-of-state. Time commitment is larger, but doable especially when the cost of the event is spread among co-drivers (I drive for free).
Is all of this expensive? Yes and No. PCA is an older demo (no surprise - Porsches, even Boxsters, can get expensive to campaign and maintain)).
NASA is much younger (stock cars, spec Z, miata, bmw, American iron, etc - all have lower purchase prices and maintenance/parts expenses). Heck - at almost every NASA event we hear some quip during pre-race drivers meeting about watching out for the expensive Porsches.
And WRL (or Lemons, Chump) is much less expensive - damn near cheap if you want to go that route.
So options abound. I think for me personally - the biggest issue was knowledge that this is doable. I didn't grow up in a house where cars were a thing. We never went to races. At 40 I bought my 911 because I always wanted one. It took a neighbor to introduce me to DE (I was floored that this existed) and quickly was bitten and now at 46 am in full year 2 of wheel to wheel comp.
Had I known about DE and racing earlier I would have found a way (Miata, lemons, something).
07-20-2016, 12:16 AM
#66
....
I hope you come out to a PCA event again because your experience does not sound normal to me and I would hate for anyone to read your post and think that was the norm. I'm no one special in the paddock and I have never been treated with anything but respect. I've made awesome friends and had great experiences all involving DE and club racing through PCA. There is no reason why that should not be the experience for anyone else.
I hope you come out to a PCA event again because your experience does not sound normal to me and I would hate for anyone to read your post and think that was the norm. I'm no one special in the paddock and I have never been treated with anything but respect. I've made awesome friends and had great experiences all involving DE and club racing through PCA. There is no reason why that should not be the experience for anyone else.
I would like to point out though that your experience is somewhat different since you have established yourself within the PCA group. I decided to share my experience as an outsider. My aim is to provide feedback and hopefully have others use this feedback. Obviously my experience hasn't deterred me as I'm still running with PCA, and I'm NOT saying that PCA needs to bend over backwards to open their arms to everyone. It was more of just one person's experience and food for thought. I wanted to share my experience to answer the question about the aging demographic. We all know that 10,000 baby boomers are turning 65 every day and will continue to do so for the next 17 years. So fresh blood is certainly needed to keep things going and we all want that for sure.
Bottom line is I see others clubs as competition - all competing for the same participants. Market share has limited growth on year-over-year basis and when more solutions are being offered at more attractive rates you can expect a hard fought battle to win people over. I do like the new spec cayman series that has been added for 2016. It's a great start for utilizing a newer vehicle with limited modification. In any case I'll be sure to say next time I see your car.
07-20-2016, 12:26 AM
#67
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I don't understand your comment. You were bragging about your wrench winning $500, I would think you'd be happy winning anything in a PCA class....
07-20-2016, 04:00 AM
#70
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In fact my favorite events are DE + Club race events. However I did see there was another thread about this very setup and race participants complaining about not having enough time on track. I love seeing the race cars in person, but again during a race weekend the seriousness has been turned up to a different level.
BTW - Race participants only ever whine about the DE group when it comes to the Sunday Enduro timing and I wouldn't read too much into that. In fact DE groups are needed to keep the cost of the events down for all of us and people realize that.
People respect skill, work and determination. Watch a SPB or 944 race sometime - those guys have skill and they are having a ball. As a matter of fact those guys are smarter because they can win on a budget and have fun. Sure there are people who spend their way to victory lane but that only gets you so far unless you have some skill as well.
07-20-2016, 10:27 AM
#72
Drifting
True not only for racing. Most hobbies are having this issue. Skiing, golf etc. Subsequent generation is smaller and poorer. People also sink so much money into college and kids nowdays.
I'm in decent shape financially and constantly question if I got into DEs too early for my wallet, never mind racing. One upside: it made me work on my driving more instead of getting a faster car.
I'm in decent shape financially and constantly question if I got into DEs too early for my wallet, never mind racing. One upside: it made me work on my driving more instead of getting a faster car.
07-20-2016, 10:43 AM
#73
What do we consider the "younger crowd". At 31 I'm a few seasons from getting my race license but I can tell you that the cost is the largest reason. If I could have started out on the track earlier I would have, but getting established in a career, house, etc slowed me down for sure.
07-20-2016, 10:54 AM
#75
Rennlist Member
However I have joined the PCA Club Racing National Technical Scrutineering program, which basically means giving up weekends that I would otherwise spend with family or on track and travel to out of region tracks and contribute towards making PCA an even better place to race.