The Aging Demographics Of Club Racing Today.....
07-18-2016, 09:35 PM
#31
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 14,668
Received 3,758 Likes
on
1,731 Posts
I've written two articles for the CVR region encouraging people to race. At the Monticello PCA race a guy introduced himself and told me my article was the reason he decided to race. I really said no more than if you think you are ready, and others with experience agree, than you should just do it. I've written professionally for many years as part of my job but i am most proud of that article.
Back on topic, since i started going to the track, only nine years ago, i've told my wife many times that my only regret is that i did not start sooner. But looking back i really couldnt because of time and money. I barely have enough of both at this loint in my life to go to the track as much as I do!
07-18-2016, 10:07 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
We've been saying the same thing about historic racing for twenty-five years.
And there are more people doing it than ever...
DE's in most parts of the country are exploding with entries. Proportionately, less than 10% ever go on to get a comp license, and half of that race.
Always been that way.
And there are more people doing it than ever...
DE's in most parts of the country are exploding with entries. Proportionately, less than 10% ever go on to get a comp license, and half of that race.
Always been that way.
07-18-2016, 10:48 PM
#34
There was an article in a recent Road and Track where the author said he could lease a new Huracan for what he spends racing something like a Doge Neon.........
It's a time and money thing. I got started club racing when I finished professional school, and I'm 38 now. And the only reason I could really afford to do it even that early, was I broke my wrist in high school, and had to sit out of sports for a while, so my Dad got me set up with a car dealer friend who got me buying and selling cars. Most of my friends my age really like cars, but few can afford them as they have growing families and the significant disposable income (and time) just isn't there.
Like ProCoach said, our club races are full mostly, and mostly older folks. I don't think anything's wrong with that, just a mirror of who can afford it. Also there's a progression. I, like a lot of others, did karts, then DE, then went into racing. Unless you have parents wanting to help you along faster, the progression takes time.
It's a time and money thing. I got started club racing when I finished professional school, and I'm 38 now. And the only reason I could really afford to do it even that early, was I broke my wrist in high school, and had to sit out of sports for a while, so my Dad got me set up with a car dealer friend who got me buying and selling cars. Most of my friends my age really like cars, but few can afford them as they have growing families and the significant disposable income (and time) just isn't there.
Like ProCoach said, our club races are full mostly, and mostly older folks. I don't think anything's wrong with that, just a mirror of who can afford it. Also there's a progression. I, like a lot of others, did karts, then DE, then went into racing. Unless you have parents wanting to help you along faster, the progression takes time.
07-18-2016, 10:58 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
There was an article in a recent Road and Track where the author said he could lease a new Huracan for what he spends racing something like a Doge Neon.........
It's a time and money thing. I got started club racing when I finished professional school, and I'm 38 now. And the only reason I could really afford to do it even that early, was I broke my wrist in high school, and had to sit out of sports for a while, so my Dad got me set up with a car dealer friend who got me buying and selling cars. Most of my friends my age really like cars, but few can afford them as they have growing families and the significant disposable income (and time) just isn't there.
Like ProCoach said, our club races are full mostly, and mostly older folks. I don't think anything's wrong with that, just a mirror of who can afford it. Also there's a progression. I, like a lot of others, did karts, then DE, then went into racing. Unless you have parents wanting to help you along faster, the progression takes time.
It's a time and money thing. I got started club racing when I finished professional school, and I'm 38 now. And the only reason I could really afford to do it even that early, was I broke my wrist in high school, and had to sit out of sports for a while, so my Dad got me set up with a car dealer friend who got me buying and selling cars. Most of my friends my age really like cars, but few can afford them as they have growing families and the significant disposable income (and time) just isn't there.
Like ProCoach said, our club races are full mostly, and mostly older folks. I don't think anything's wrong with that, just a mirror of who can afford it. Also there's a progression. I, like a lot of others, did karts, then DE, then went into racing. Unless you have parents wanting to help you along faster, the progression takes time.
I think that is all good stuff for racing and for us racers that still want it to be safe to play out there... the more track time you get, the better i feel about sharing it with you in close quarters. in the porsche groups, many of the cars are even faster still and are a lot more pricey....... this is where the older croud tends to play in PCA. However, there still are a lot of younger drivers with wealthy connections that seem to be out there!
Bottomline, i think to help with the sport, PCA and SCCA should think about having a DE group every single weekend to help with feeding the natural fall out of member participation.
07-18-2016, 11:04 PM
#36
I'm in....
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
out here its just the opposite. you start getting sick of these poser cars and all this power and then you ask if they can handle the power and capabilities of the car. you end up with a bunch of guys running around the track, learning their cars... touting of their lap times, weekend over weekend and then it hits... the bug..... time trialing...... then w 2 w racing. with scca, there are not too many older guys.. only a handful, and most with a lot of experience. most of the sports car racers are the 30 to 40 group. with NASA, i would think its a tad younger... and definitely fed by the autocross and DE groups .
I think that is all good stuff for racing and for us racers that still want it to be safe to play out there... the more track time you get, the better i feel about sharing it with you in close quarters. in the porsche groups, many of the cars are even faster still and are a lot more pricey....... this is where the older croud tends to play in PCA. However, there still are a lot of younger drivers with wealthy connections that seem to be out there!
Bottomline, i think to help with the sport, PCA and SCCA should think about having a DE group every single weekend to help with feeding the natural fall out of member participation.
I think that is all good stuff for racing and for us racers that still want it to be safe to play out there... the more track time you get, the better i feel about sharing it with you in close quarters. in the porsche groups, many of the cars are even faster still and are a lot more pricey....... this is where the older croud tends to play in PCA. However, there still are a lot of younger drivers with wealthy connections that seem to be out there!
Bottomline, i think to help with the sport, PCA and SCCA should think about having a DE group every single weekend to help with feeding the natural fall out of member participation.
07-18-2016, 11:37 PM
#37
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 14,668
Received 3,758 Likes
on
1,731 Posts
07-19-2016, 12:10 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
Why does it have to be at a club race? Around here there are 10 PCA DEs to every club race already. We pay a lot more for a race weekend then for a DE, it's nice to get more track time. The format at Monticello last weekend: 3 sprints and a 90 min enduro was great. I wish I would have had a chance to race.
the DE track within a race weekend shouldnt be any less than it would be for a normal DE only weekend. usually, you get 3 to 4 x 25 30 min sessions.
I would easily agree to trim our races from 30 min to 25 mins to accommodate the DE groups in SCCA race weekends.
07-19-2016, 03:00 PM
#41
I'm in....
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
07-19-2016, 06:04 PM
#42
I really like this topic. I often questioned why more young people aren’t racing. Here are a few of my observations. This is coming from an outsider looking in and someone who has been doing DE for 5+ years. I hope you don’t mind if I share – any feedback is good feedback.
I think there is also a perception problem and openness to others. I do recall speaking to a Porsche owner about his car (997 GT3) and I mistakenly made the comment that I hope to get one someday – only to receive a response, “you’re too young.” That response tells me that even if you wanted to see younger folks in your races there would be some jealousy or envy in the “young crowd” because somehow we didn’t pay our dues. I would summarize this as close minded. It’s very apparent too when you have a discussion with older drivers and younger drivers.
Assuming you got a PCA race license and wanted to run a race you’ll soon realize It’s a huge time commitment, especially if drivers are running their own cars. The reason for why you see more of an older crowd is not necessarily money, but time. For someone mid-career, having to lose a day of work to travel and then another one to have practice and qualifying is a huge time commitment (this is even before the weekend – if it is a weekend race). Then should something happen during the race (bad drivers or simply a racing incident), you’ll see even more frustration. It only takes one major incident for someone to see the return isn’t worth it. As the older crowd can understand, companies these days don’t always offer generous amounts of time off.
Racing doesn’t draw a crowd because coverage is pretty limited and no one gives a damn who the people are. Coverage from local chapters is poor and reporting about what happened is boring - nothing that’s written is exciting enough for someone to take action. Why should they be interested? But let’s assume someone does come out to watch a race in person and let’s also assume they don’t know anyone. They make the 2-3 hour drive to the race track and see the paddock filled with trailers, cars, pop-up tents and company banners waving. However, should that person go up and try to speak with anyone they’ll be brushed off immediately. The veterans don’t wish to share their “secrets” by talking to you about the car, the team managers are “busy” making sure the mechanics are getting things done, the mechanics are busy checking the cars and drivers don’t care about spectators. To that end there’s very little reason for anyone to further support a group when met with little to no reception. If you’re trying to grow and groom future PCA members, especially for racing then you’re in for a long hard fight with this mentality.
On top of that the community is hugely fragmented and is no longer there to support one another, but rather who can spend the most money to win. Until there’s a better format that allows for cars to run against each other with limited prep (primarily safety, roll cage, brakes, fluid and tires) youngsters are better off running with Miata’s or other cheaper Enduro series. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all about letting the privileged run against each other, but if you’re looking for new blood you need to find a better alternative.
In the end, racing is not like training for a Marathon. You can’t just practice and then decide to do a race. It’s a much deeper commitment. And with heavy competition from other clubs, limited interaction and a narrow community it’s very easy to see why more aren’t participating.
I think there is also a perception problem and openness to others. I do recall speaking to a Porsche owner about his car (997 GT3) and I mistakenly made the comment that I hope to get one someday – only to receive a response, “you’re too young.” That response tells me that even if you wanted to see younger folks in your races there would be some jealousy or envy in the “young crowd” because somehow we didn’t pay our dues. I would summarize this as close minded. It’s very apparent too when you have a discussion with older drivers and younger drivers.
Assuming you got a PCA race license and wanted to run a race you’ll soon realize It’s a huge time commitment, especially if drivers are running their own cars. The reason for why you see more of an older crowd is not necessarily money, but time. For someone mid-career, having to lose a day of work to travel and then another one to have practice and qualifying is a huge time commitment (this is even before the weekend – if it is a weekend race). Then should something happen during the race (bad drivers or simply a racing incident), you’ll see even more frustration. It only takes one major incident for someone to see the return isn’t worth it. As the older crowd can understand, companies these days don’t always offer generous amounts of time off.
Racing doesn’t draw a crowd because coverage is pretty limited and no one gives a damn who the people are. Coverage from local chapters is poor and reporting about what happened is boring - nothing that’s written is exciting enough for someone to take action. Why should they be interested? But let’s assume someone does come out to watch a race in person and let’s also assume they don’t know anyone. They make the 2-3 hour drive to the race track and see the paddock filled with trailers, cars, pop-up tents and company banners waving. However, should that person go up and try to speak with anyone they’ll be brushed off immediately. The veterans don’t wish to share their “secrets” by talking to you about the car, the team managers are “busy” making sure the mechanics are getting things done, the mechanics are busy checking the cars and drivers don’t care about spectators. To that end there’s very little reason for anyone to further support a group when met with little to no reception. If you’re trying to grow and groom future PCA members, especially for racing then you’re in for a long hard fight with this mentality.
On top of that the community is hugely fragmented and is no longer there to support one another, but rather who can spend the most money to win. Until there’s a better format that allows for cars to run against each other with limited prep (primarily safety, roll cage, brakes, fluid and tires) youngsters are better off running with Miata’s or other cheaper Enduro series. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all about letting the privileged run against each other, but if you’re looking for new blood you need to find a better alternative.
In the end, racing is not like training for a Marathon. You can’t just practice and then decide to do a race. It’s a much deeper commitment. And with heavy competition from other clubs, limited interaction and a narrow community it’s very easy to see why more aren’t participating.
07-19-2016, 06:10 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
There are a lot of people in the 30s and 40s with enough money and interest to race but not enough time. You have TONS of time in your teens and 20s but not nearly enough money. In your 30s and (I assume) 40s that time is sucked by family and job for those who need to work at a career to make money and weren't lucky enough to be born into it or by some stroke of luck.
My two main reasons for not racing now are 1) time and 2) community demographics. Now I realize that the avg Porsche buyer is older. So it comes to no surprise to me that at 33 I have nothing in common with over 90% of folks at PCA social and club racing events. Most are retired or almost there and have their buddies and cliques. However, in my first year in Chicago PCA I attended nearly every event (C&C, DE, Rallye, Tech Talk, concourse) tried to engage people to learn more about the Porsche social and racing scene and found that PCA is by far the most antisocial social club I've ever seen. It was like pulling teeth trying to talk to people and arrange outside events. It's like the only club with a chip on its shoulder. Not everyone was like this but it was certainly the norm.
I loathe the younger tuner crowd in Chicago but I'll be damned if those guys are not the most inclusive bunch of people. They aren't as buttoned up or mature but man do they try their hearts out to put on a good show and get everyone involved.
You also need to realize that the younger generations have WAY MORE things vying for their attention and we are awesome at multitasking. Now if I were single, I'd have the time to club race and ship a race car around the country, but as a married guy with a one month old, it's much more enticing to me to bring my laptop to the local track for a private lap day during the week, bang out a meeting or two on the phone, run 4 of 6 sessions and be home in time for dinner and a night out (if I' lucky) than it is to trailer a vehicle around dedicating an entire weekend to racing. As someone said earlier, this trend is evidenced by the HUGE boon in DE attendance and private track rental clubs. You get 90% of the racing experience in a DE or track day with 25% of the time investment. It's just a better value. And the younger generation certainly has had to know how to stretch a buck.
There are certainly younger people who will enter racing, but it's not the norm and will index much lower than the boomers. The only guys I know my age who race are either in the automotive/racing industry and/or are single.
My two main reasons for not racing now are 1) time and 2) community demographics. Now I realize that the avg Porsche buyer is older. So it comes to no surprise to me that at 33 I have nothing in common with over 90% of folks at PCA social and club racing events. Most are retired or almost there and have their buddies and cliques. However, in my first year in Chicago PCA I attended nearly every event (C&C, DE, Rallye, Tech Talk, concourse) tried to engage people to learn more about the Porsche social and racing scene and found that PCA is by far the most antisocial social club I've ever seen. It was like pulling teeth trying to talk to people and arrange outside events. It's like the only club with a chip on its shoulder. Not everyone was like this but it was certainly the norm.
I loathe the younger tuner crowd in Chicago but I'll be damned if those guys are not the most inclusive bunch of people. They aren't as buttoned up or mature but man do they try their hearts out to put on a good show and get everyone involved.
You also need to realize that the younger generations have WAY MORE things vying for their attention and we are awesome at multitasking. Now if I were single, I'd have the time to club race and ship a race car around the country, but as a married guy with a one month old, it's much more enticing to me to bring my laptop to the local track for a private lap day during the week, bang out a meeting or two on the phone, run 4 of 6 sessions and be home in time for dinner and a night out (if I' lucky) than it is to trailer a vehicle around dedicating an entire weekend to racing. As someone said earlier, this trend is evidenced by the HUGE boon in DE attendance and private track rental clubs. You get 90% of the racing experience in a DE or track day with 25% of the time investment. It's just a better value. And the younger generation certainly has had to know how to stretch a buck.
There are certainly younger people who will enter racing, but it's not the norm and will index much lower than the boomers. The only guys I know my age who race are either in the automotive/racing industry and/or are single.
07-19-2016, 06:12 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
I think there is also a perception problem and openness to others. I do recall speaking to a Porsche owner about his car (997 GT3) and I mistakenly made the comment that I hope to get one someday – only to receive a response, “you’re too young.” That response tells me that even if you wanted to see younger folks in your races there would be some jealousy or envy in the “young crowd” because somehow we didn’t pay our dues. I would summarize this as close minded. It’s very apparent too when you have a discussion with older drivers and younger drivers.
07-19-2016, 06:36 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Wow, some seriously negative comments between the two of you, sorry to see your experiences have been so bad. I met some of my closest friends at PCA DE's, many in their 30's at the time (I was 50), and have had a great time with the whole PCA journey to racing. Are there ***-0's in PCA? Yep, just like everywhere else in life. I will say if you came over to me and asked questions I love to talk about my car and driving so it would have been a different situation... unless of course I was getting ready for grid. As for your statement that "You get 90% of the racing experience in a DE or track day with 25% of the time investment." you clearly don't know.. their is little to no comparison other than both occur on a track. DE is/should be a fun social event, if it isn't find different PCA regions or groups to run with.