Newbie unhappy with PCA DEs
05-30-2016, 10:15 AM
#136
Rennlist Member
OP, some suggestions based on my experience (DE since 2006, racing since 2009):
1. Stick with DE and instructors provided there at least until you graduate to intermediate, solo driving level. No need to pay premiums (pro coaches) for the low hanging fruit. The largest benefit to you will come from your own seat time regardless of how many crappy or good instructors you encounter on your journey. Lots of good advice in this thread on dealing with instructors.
2. Relax a bit and cut instructors (and everyone else at the track) some slack. We're humans, people have characters and come with moods, probably affected by stuff that happened to them the day/night before. And, yes, there are jerks out there but this is no news and you should have learned about this in grade school. If you bring an easy going energy to the track you'll be surprised how much easy going karma comes your way.
3. Get an Aim Solo. Use its Predictive Mode to measure progress and to quantify differences between various driving approaches.
4. When you graduate to comfortable solo driving, take a racing school class. I did the 3-day SBRS after 2 years of DE and it was essential for my advancement, especially because of acquiring car control skills. I divide my driving history into BCC (before car control) and ACC (after car control). In BCC, approaching 9/10 will lead to an exponential increase in instances of loss of control and off's. ACC is where the real fun and progress can begin -- when you can comfortably come near and straddle 10/10 yet still be in full control and literally dance with the car.
5. Use less sticky tires while in BCC. They're easier to learn on, easier to catch, safer, and last longer (cheaper).
6. Consider hiring a pro coach after you enter ACC.
1. Stick with DE and instructors provided there at least until you graduate to intermediate, solo driving level. No need to pay premiums (pro coaches) for the low hanging fruit. The largest benefit to you will come from your own seat time regardless of how many crappy or good instructors you encounter on your journey. Lots of good advice in this thread on dealing with instructors.
2. Relax a bit and cut instructors (and everyone else at the track) some slack. We're humans, people have characters and come with moods, probably affected by stuff that happened to them the day/night before. And, yes, there are jerks out there but this is no news and you should have learned about this in grade school. If you bring an easy going energy to the track you'll be surprised how much easy going karma comes your way.
3. Get an Aim Solo. Use its Predictive Mode to measure progress and to quantify differences between various driving approaches.
4. When you graduate to comfortable solo driving, take a racing school class. I did the 3-day SBRS after 2 years of DE and it was essential for my advancement, especially because of acquiring car control skills. I divide my driving history into BCC (before car control) and ACC (after car control). In BCC, approaching 9/10 will lead to an exponential increase in instances of loss of control and off's. ACC is where the real fun and progress can begin -- when you can comfortably come near and straddle 10/10 yet still be in full control and literally dance with the car.
5. Use less sticky tires while in BCC. They're easier to learn on, easier to catch, safer, and last longer (cheaper).
6. Consider hiring a pro coach after you enter ACC.
05-30-2016, 12:19 PM
#137
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Agree with the "be proactive and request a known quantity instructor" for marque club and Chin events.
The OP, to his credit, is already investigating logging options that include predictive lap timing.
The OP, to his credit, is already investigating logging options that include predictive lap timing.
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05-30-2016, 02:49 PM
#138
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The number one reason both novice and advanced drivers hire well regarded pro coaches is because they're looking for VERY specific, detailed and well-founded answers to their questions. Answers that are not opinions. This is because most have received seriously conflicting advice and instruction.
The whole idea of teaching or emphasizing wholly different techniques for different experience levels is a good example of that. The dichotomy of "school line" versus "race line" contributes immensely to the confusion sewn in even the most experienced driver's approach. The conflict between a particular classroom curriculum and what is taught in-car is a big issue. And the OP is right on in raising this issue, as colleagues like Ross Bentley are, too. After nearly three decades of doing this (before it was cool
), there's plenty of room for improvement from organizations, instructor corps (both volunteer and pro) and classroom instruction.DE instructors got me to the point where I knew what I didn't know and what I needed to work on. When I got a pro-instructor there were a bunch of basic items that needed fixing.
I have tons of respect for DE instructors but there is a reason why certain people get paid.
I agree with what Peter said . If you do interview people to hire, IMO only look at folks like Peter and me who professionally coach full time...who do this for a living .
Also...shame on the instructor who insisted on teaching a "race line". There is no such thing. There are many lines. There are fast and slow lines, there are geometrically effective lines and defensive lines. Over time you'll learn many and decide for yourself which are effective and comfortable and safe for you.
Also...shame on the instructor who insisted on teaching a "race line". There is no such thing. There are many lines. There are fast and slow lines, there are geometrically effective lines and defensive lines. Over time you'll learn many and decide for yourself which are effective and comfortable and safe for you.
05-30-2016, 03:02 PM
#139
Pro
Lots of good advice for everyone ^^^^ all of the above.
My 2 cents. It is important that you and your instructor are on (as close to) the same page as possible. From an instructor's point of view it is very difficult to guess where the student is on the learning curve, what abilities he has or is lacking, and why he is at the event. Sometime they do not have a long term goal, sometimes they do, some can drive, some can't. So given that, be proactive with your instructor, if he does not ask, tell him where you are, what you would like to achieve during the event and on a particular run.
Meet your instructor before the run, at least 10 minutes, but more if possible, to talk about things. Ideally you would have more time, but at some events that is impossible, I have done some schools where I have 2 students, plus my run group, leaving very little time for get to know you sessions.
As many have noted communication is the key to learning. Let your instructor know what works best for you (if you know).
Some instructors are better than others, some are not good communicators, some are, some are "my way or the highway" types, others aren't. You do enough of these and you will have all of them.
The most successful students are the ones that are willing to check the ego at the gate, willing to put in the time and effort to learn. The better instructors are the same way.
My 2 cents. It is important that you and your instructor are on (as close to) the same page as possible. From an instructor's point of view it is very difficult to guess where the student is on the learning curve, what abilities he has or is lacking, and why he is at the event. Sometime they do not have a long term goal, sometimes they do, some can drive, some can't. So given that, be proactive with your instructor, if he does not ask, tell him where you are, what you would like to achieve during the event and on a particular run.
Meet your instructor before the run, at least 10 minutes, but more if possible, to talk about things. Ideally you would have more time, but at some events that is impossible, I have done some schools where I have 2 students, plus my run group, leaving very little time for get to know you sessions.
As many have noted communication is the key to learning. Let your instructor know what works best for you (if you know).
Some instructors are better than others, some are not good communicators, some are, some are "my way or the highway" types, others aren't. You do enough of these and you will have all of them.
The most successful students are the ones that are willing to check the ego at the gate, willing to put in the time and effort to learn. The better instructors are the same way.
05-30-2016, 03:17 PM
#140
Three Wheelin'
OP, some suggestions based on my experience (DE since 2006, racing since 2009): 1. Stick with DE and instructors provided there at least until you graduate to intermediate, solo driving level. No need to pay premiums (pro coaches) for the low hanging fruit. The largest benefit to you will come from your own seat time regardless of how many crappy or good instructors you encounter on your journey. Lots of good advice in this thread on dealing with instructors. 2. Relax a bit and cut instructors (and everyone else at the track) some slack. We're humans, people have characters and come with moods, probably affected by stuff that happened to them the day/night before. And, yes, there are jerks out there but this is no news and you should have learned about this in grade school. If you bring an easy going energy to the track you'll be surprised how much easy going karma comes your way. 3. Get an Aim Solo. Use its Predictive Mode to measure progress and to quantify differences between various driving approaches. 4. When you graduate to comfortable solo driving, take a racing school class. I did the 3-day SBRS after 2 years of DE and it was essential for my advancement, especially because of acquiring car control skills. I divide my driving history into BCC (before car control) and ACC (after car control). In BCC, approaching 9/10 will lead to an exponential increase in instances of loss of control and off's. ACC is where the real fun and progress can begin -- when you can comfortably come near and straddle 10/10 yet still be in full control and literally dance with the car. 5. Use less sticky tires while in BCC. They're easier to learn on, easier to catch, safer, and last longer (cheaper). 6. Consider hiring a pro coach after you enter ACC.
05-30-2016, 10:51 PM
#141
I like for an instructor to be able to give me the time to go out and practice what they have taught, on my own.
Whenever an instructor is after me for doing something different, all I can think is - I'm sure the racers go off line every once in awhile
05-30-2016, 11:33 PM
#142
Rennlist Member
+997 I am quite intrigued by this thread. I seem to spend the first day of each DE UNlearning what I learned at the last session because my current instructor tells me that everything my previous instructor told me was wrong. But my Indy session was terrific - instructor took me out for one run and then said, "You don't need me."
I like for an instructor to be able to give me the time to go out and practice what they have taught, on my own.
Whenever an instructor is after me for doing something different, all I can think is - I'm sure the racers go off line every once in awhile
I like for an instructor to be able to give me the time to go out and practice what they have taught, on my own.
Whenever an instructor is after me for doing something different, all I can think is - I'm sure the racers go off line every once in awhile
To be honest, I've refrained from posting to this thread as I've had some pretty bad experiences with a few instructors...from regions that tout themselves as being better than the rest. Honestly, I am registered with PCA in 3 regions, one of which is a region that I won't even run with anymore. There is another that I consider my "home" region that has a drivers and instructors core that I'd stack against anyone...and that region is in Canada (Rennsport).
I've only been doing DE for 3 years, but done a lot of days, and read a lot as have tried to be a student of this adventure. We all have seen enough to know that this exercise can be extremely dangerous - and we all need to have a healthy respect for that. This can all be amazing and it's the people that make doing all this great.
I'd say to the OP to not get discouraged. Some instructors will work for you and others won't. There is always something to take away. I've had a lot of highs and lows doing DE and many have been personality oriented, but I can assure you that I am now in a place where I can't believe how incredibly fortunate I am to have the people I do surrounding me.
May you find the same experience.
And, FWIW - If I was on track and though of half of Karen's avatars, I'd drive off line / track too....
05-31-2016, 12:27 AM
#143
Racers go off line for a variety of reasons...sometimes by accident and sometimes on purpose. The "by accident" reasons should not be at all common at a DE event because you shouldn't be driving at 9 or 10/10ths.
A racer on a clear track, if he is any good, should be doing the same thing in each corner over and over again. He should be very consistent driving their line and hitting the apexes. This is what you DE instructor is trying to get you to do too.
05-31-2016, 12:47 AM
#144
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I considered all of my instructors with various clubs to be good to excellent. I worked well and learned from all of them, and can still remember specifics that I learned from each of them. So I assumed that all instructors were good, and it was mainly after becoming an instructor myself and hearing instructing horror stories from students that I discovered that some instructors really aren't cut out for the job.
When instructors told me contradictory things, it didn't bother me, I just tried whatever they suggested and stored it in my mental databank for later consideration of what approach may make the most sense. I figured that even if there's one 'optimum solution' out there, different approaches may still produce nearly optimal results, so I should keep an open mind and be willing to experiment a bit.
So, before judging instructors and expecting to be instructed in a particular way, my suggestion to students is to try to adapt to your instructors and soak up whatever they can offer you. If you don't like a particular instructor, reversion to the mean tells us that, most likely, your next instructor will be better for you.
When instructors told me contradictory things, it didn't bother me, I just tried whatever they suggested and stored it in my mental databank for later consideration of what approach may make the most sense. I figured that even if there's one 'optimum solution' out there, different approaches may still produce nearly optimal results, so I should keep an open mind and be willing to experiment a bit.
So, before judging instructors and expecting to be instructed in a particular way, my suggestion to students is to try to adapt to your instructors and soak up whatever they can offer you. If you don't like a particular instructor, reversion to the mean tells us that, most likely, your next instructor will be better for you.
05-31-2016, 02:03 AM
#145
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Worked on my registrations tonight. Got my VBox (thanks Peter) and look forward to hopefully getting Porsche Track app to work. So far summer looks like this:
06/11 - PCA/PBOC Homestead
06/18 - PCA Barber
07/09 - PDG Homestead
07/26 - Chin Sebring
08/06 - PDG Homestead
Man, I never had a problem with last minute registration here in S Florida. But looks like Chin is completely different. Now have my eyes on the calendar to get:
08/13 - Chin Sebring
09/03 - Chin COTA
09/10 - Chin Barber
My GT4 has PCCB and based on what I have read on the PCCB threads I was thinking about paying a visit to BGB to change brake fluid to SRF and install steel brake line. In addition change pads for Pagid RSC1 as they seem to theoretically extend PCCB.
Look forward to everyone's input.
06/11 - PCA/PBOC Homestead
06/18 - PCA Barber
07/09 - PDG Homestead
07/26 - Chin Sebring
08/06 - PDG Homestead
Man, I never had a problem with last minute registration here in S Florida. But looks like Chin is completely different. Now have my eyes on the calendar to get:
08/13 - Chin Sebring
09/03 - Chin COTA
09/10 - Chin Barber
My GT4 has PCCB and based on what I have read on the PCCB threads I was thinking about paying a visit to BGB to change brake fluid to SRF and install steel brake line. In addition change pads for Pagid RSC1 as they seem to theoretically extend PCCB.
Look forward to everyone's input.
05-31-2016, 08:27 AM
#146
Intermediate
Worked on my registrations tonight. Got my VBox (thanks Peter) and look forward to hopefully getting Porsche Track app to work. So far summer looks like this:
06/11 - PCA/PBOC Homestead
06/18 - PCA Barber
07/09 - PDG Homestead
07/26 - Chin Sebring
08/06 - PDG Homestead
Man, I never had a problem with last minute registration here in S Florida. But looks like Chin is completely different. Now have my eyes on the calendar to get:
08/13 - Chin Sebring
09/03 - Chin COTA
09/10 - Chin Barber
My GT4 has PCCB and based on what I have read on the PCCB threads I was thinking about paying a visit to BGB to change brake fluid to SRF and install steel brake line. In addition change pads for Pagid RSC1 as they seem to theoretically extend PCCB.
Look forward to everyone's input.
06/11 - PCA/PBOC Homestead
06/18 - PCA Barber
07/09 - PDG Homestead
07/26 - Chin Sebring
08/06 - PDG Homestead
Man, I never had a problem with last minute registration here in S Florida. But looks like Chin is completely different. Now have my eyes on the calendar to get:
08/13 - Chin Sebring
09/03 - Chin COTA
09/10 - Chin Barber
My GT4 has PCCB and based on what I have read on the PCCB threads I was thinking about paying a visit to BGB to change brake fluid to SRF and install steel brake line. In addition change pads for Pagid RSC1 as they seem to theoretically extend PCCB.
Look forward to everyone's input.
05-31-2016, 09:16 AM
#147
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John T is a great resource. You're in good hands.
05-31-2016, 09:51 AM
#148
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by ElusiveDaveH
With that schedule, you may wish to ask John at BGB to swap in steel brakes to save you some money in the long run. I would also buy a set of tires so you have them in your hands and not subject to out of stock issues. I look forward to your future posts on your experiences.
I drive 20+ miles to work and used the opportunity to break in as suggested by AP (I confess I barely went above 6000 rpm and whenever I did I was sure I was about to be arrested). But now the GT4 will be a track only toy (maybe some short drives on the weekend). In addition I am pretty sure I will be far from abusing the brakes at my current skill level. So I think I am willing to take my chances and keep the PCCB. Worst case scenario I will swap to iron once the PCCBs are dead.
05-31-2016, 12:51 PM
#149
Rennlist Member
+1 Canada (Rennsport)
I have only done 1 DE @ WGI Zone 1 PCA, and my instructor was from Canada (Rennsport), he was terrific.
I have only done 1 DE @ WGI Zone 1 PCA, and my instructor was from Canada (Rennsport), he was terrific.
I was finding the same thing a bit when I started. I was trying to have someone tell me what to do rather than "feeling" and understanding it myself. I think that I've always been pretty self-aware and just learned a lot on my own AFTER I had the help and support of a couple fantastic instructors.
To be honest, I've refrained from posting to this thread as I've had some pretty bad experiences with a few instructors...from regions that tout themselves as being better than the rest. Honestly, I am registered with PCA in 3 regions, one of which is a region that I won't even run with anymore. There is another that I consider my "home" region that has a drivers and instructors core that I'd stack against anyone...and that region is in Canada (Rennsport).
I've only been doing DE for 3 years, but done a lot of days, and read a lot as have tried to be a student of this adventure. We all have seen enough to know that this exercise can be extremely dangerous - and we all need to have a healthy respect for that. This can all be amazing and it's the people that make doing all this great.
I'd say to the OP to not get discouraged. Some instructors will work for you and others won't. There is always something to take away. I've had a lot of highs and lows doing DE and many have been personality oriented, but I can assure you that I am now in a place where I can't believe how incredibly fortunate I am to have the people I do surrounding me.
May you find the same experience.
And, FWIW - If I was on track and though of half of Karen's avatars, I'd drive off line / track too....
To be honest, I've refrained from posting to this thread as I've had some pretty bad experiences with a few instructors...from regions that tout themselves as being better than the rest. Honestly, I am registered with PCA in 3 regions, one of which is a region that I won't even run with anymore. There is another that I consider my "home" region that has a drivers and instructors core that I'd stack against anyone...and that region is in Canada (Rennsport).
I've only been doing DE for 3 years, but done a lot of days, and read a lot as have tried to be a student of this adventure. We all have seen enough to know that this exercise can be extremely dangerous - and we all need to have a healthy respect for that. This can all be amazing and it's the people that make doing all this great.
I'd say to the OP to not get discouraged. Some instructors will work for you and others won't. There is always something to take away. I've had a lot of highs and lows doing DE and many have been personality oriented, but I can assure you that I am now in a place where I can't believe how incredibly fortunate I am to have the people I do surrounding me.
May you find the same experience.
And, FWIW - If I was on track and though of half of Karen's avatars, I'd drive off line / track too....
06-01-2016, 12:44 AM
#150
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Read a couple of things here, some of which resonated in several ways...
I have, and do tell better green students to make sure the car in front of them knows you are there, BUT this includes staying out of blind spots, realizing that that driver may be overwhelmed, watching for erratic behavior, falling back a bit,...
WRT lots of lines and styles and levels of frustration, I ALSO tell them that I will show them one line, more advanced drivers several lines, that pretty much every instructor will show their line, and this will be frustrating with the lack of consensus.
Back in the day :-), I was a big Bruce Lee (and MA) fan (he was brilliant) who taught that many things have merit, but not everything. So, as a student, take what really works for you, integrate it into your tool box, and that becomes yours to use as needed.
Ray
I have, and do tell better green students to make sure the car in front of them knows you are there, BUT this includes staying out of blind spots, realizing that that driver may be overwhelmed, watching for erratic behavior, falling back a bit,...
WRT lots of lines and styles and levels of frustration, I ALSO tell them that I will show them one line, more advanced drivers several lines, that pretty much every instructor will show their line, and this will be frustrating with the lack of consensus.
Back in the day :-), I was a big Bruce Lee (and MA) fan (he was brilliant) who taught that many things have merit, but not everything. So, as a student, take what really works for you, integrate it into your tool box, and that becomes yours to use as needed.
Ray