Newbie unhappy with PCA DEs
05-28-2016, 05:13 PM
#106
I was reading this thread and wondering when someone would bring up the 11/10's DE drivers. There are always a couple at every DE event. They are easy to spot too, they are the ones cleaning dirt or gravel from under their car, or coming off track on the back of the flatbed wrecker with damage from a wall, tree, guard rail, etc.
Thank you Peter!
One other thought for the instructors that are reading. When "showing" a student how it's done in his car or any other car for that matter, it's better to play the rabbit and be just slightly faster than he is but be sure you are teaching (showing) him perfect execution. He will see the perfect execution and duplicate that. I personally use a 2 second rule, I will be the rabbit that is always 2 seconds faster than the student, that way he see's it as an achievable goal. If I ran the 10-15 seconds faster that I am capable of doing typically then he would be in it way over his head trying to duplicate me and be frustrated.
Of course as soon as he catches up and gets those new found 2 seconds through proper execution then I just jump in the car and go 2 seconds faster than that still playing my rabbit role. I personally have found that technique to work really well with students and allow them to learn at a nice progressive safe paced learning curve.
Just my 2 cents, hope some of the instructors on here find the info useful.
Thank you Peter!
One other thought for the instructors that are reading. When "showing" a student how it's done in his car or any other car for that matter, it's better to play the rabbit and be just slightly faster than he is but be sure you are teaching (showing) him perfect execution. He will see the perfect execution and duplicate that. I personally use a 2 second rule, I will be the rabbit that is always 2 seconds faster than the student, that way he see's it as an achievable goal. If I ran the 10-15 seconds faster that I am capable of doing typically then he would be in it way over his head trying to duplicate me and be frustrated.
Of course as soon as he catches up and gets those new found 2 seconds through proper execution then I just jump in the car and go 2 seconds faster than that still playing my rabbit role. I personally have found that technique to work really well with students and allow them to learn at a nice progressive safe paced learning curve.
Just my 2 cents, hope some of the instructors on here find the info useful.
05-28-2016, 05:27 PM
#107
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I was reading this thread and wondering when someone would bring up the 11/10's DE drivers. There are always a couple at every DE event. They are easy to spot too, they are the ones cleaning dirt or gravel from under their car, or coming off track on the back of the flatbed wrecker with damage from a wall, tree, guard rail, etc.
Thank you Peter!
One other thought for the instructors that are reading. When "showing" a student how it's done in his car or any other car for that matter, it's better to play the rabbit and be just slightly faster than he is but be sure you are teaching (showing) him perfect execution. He will see the perfect execution and duplicate that. I personally use a 2 second rule, I will be the rabbit that is always 2 seconds faster than the student, that way he see's it as an achievable goal. If I ran the 10-15 seconds faster that I am capable of doing typically then he would be in it way over his head trying to duplicate me and be frustrated.
Of course as soon as he catches up and gets those new found 2 seconds through proper execution then I just jump in the car and go 2 seconds faster than that still playing my rabbit role. I personally have found that technique to work really well with students and allow them to learn at a nice progressive safe paced learning curve.
Just my 2 cents, hope some of the instructors on here find the info useful.
Thank you Peter!
One other thought for the instructors that are reading. When "showing" a student how it's done in his car or any other car for that matter, it's better to play the rabbit and be just slightly faster than he is but be sure you are teaching (showing) him perfect execution. He will see the perfect execution and duplicate that. I personally use a 2 second rule, I will be the rabbit that is always 2 seconds faster than the student, that way he see's it as an achievable goal. If I ran the 10-15 seconds faster that I am capable of doing typically then he would be in it way over his head trying to duplicate me and be frustrated.
Of course as soon as he catches up and gets those new found 2 seconds through proper execution then I just jump in the car and go 2 seconds faster than that still playing my rabbit role. I personally have found that technique to work really well with students and allow them to learn at a nice progressive safe paced learning curve.
Just my 2 cents, hope some of the instructors on here find the info useful.
__________________
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
05-28-2016, 06:26 PM
#108
Intermediate
To the OP,
I have run Sebring with several groups including multiple PCA chapters, NASA and Chin.
By far, I was most pleased with Chin and its instruction philosophy as well as the caliber of the drivers. This is often overlooked in my opinion. It's not fun when you cannot trust the people (or their cars) around you.
When I go into a turn as a passing situation, I know the person in front of me will brake early and allow me the inside. I will brake late and aggressively. He will tuck in behind me like a ballet with little loss of momentum. How do I know this? We discuss it in pre-event meetings with our specific run group. I also personally have met this driver since I have now run many events with Chin. As you mentioned in your first post, It makes it more enjoyable when you are track friends and you respect each other. I recommend you run with Chin as your first choice and also the PCA DEs by Suncoast and Citrus regions. You will find we circulate in the same groups. If you see me in the fall, say hello. I'm dark blue 2014 Cayman S #91. I'll take you out in my car and we can discuss how things are progressing for you over this summer.
-Dave H.
I have run Sebring with several groups including multiple PCA chapters, NASA and Chin.
By far, I was most pleased with Chin and its instruction philosophy as well as the caliber of the drivers. This is often overlooked in my opinion. It's not fun when you cannot trust the people (or their cars) around you.
When I go into a turn as a passing situation, I know the person in front of me will brake early and allow me the inside. I will brake late and aggressively. He will tuck in behind me like a ballet with little loss of momentum. How do I know this? We discuss it in pre-event meetings with our specific run group. I also personally have met this driver since I have now run many events with Chin. As you mentioned in your first post, It makes it more enjoyable when you are track friends and you respect each other. I recommend you run with Chin as your first choice and also the PCA DEs by Suncoast and Citrus regions. You will find we circulate in the same groups. If you see me in the fall, say hello. I'm dark blue 2014 Cayman S #91. I'll take you out in my car and we can discuss how things are progressing for you over this summer.
-Dave H.
05-28-2016, 06:49 PM
#109
uninformed gas bag
(contemplating on whether gas bag is one or two words)
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(contemplating on whether gas bag is one or two words)
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Then comes Winterfest and another instructor, who decides to use the weekend to trash me saying everything I had been told was wrong and maybe one day I would be as good as him. No encouragement, just negative remarks like - you havent learnt anything this session. The second day this guy decides to drive my car, which he does for an ENTIRE student session missing gears messing up with the PDK... I could have asked for another instructor the second day but decided not to do so as it would be another Russian roulette. I have not done another DE since...
!
05-28-2016, 08:11 PM
#110
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by MUSSBERGER
Isn't Winterfest a PBOC event? It was an awful DE experience for me. They black flagged one of our sessions because somebody wasn't paying attention to the corner workers and gave us all a lecture.
05-28-2016, 08:15 PM
#111
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by ElusiveDaveH
To the OP,
I have run Sebring with several groups including multiple PCA chapters, NASA and Chin.
By far, I was most pleased with Chin and its instruction philosophy as well as the caliber of the drivers. This is often overlooked in my opinion. It's not fun when you cannot trust the people (or their cars) around you.
When I go into a turn as a passing situation, I know the person in front of me will brake early and allow me the inside. I will brake late and aggressively. He will tuck in behind me like a ballet with little loss of momentum. How do I know this? We discuss it in pre-event meetings with our specific run group. I also personally have met this driver since I have now run many events with Chin. As you mentioned in your first post, It makes it more enjoyable when you are track friends and you respect each other. I recommend you run with Chin as your first choice and also the PCA DEs by Suncoast and Citrus regions. You will find we circulate in the same groups. If you see me in the fall, say hello. I'm dark blue 2014 Cayman S #91. I'll take you out in my car and we can discuss how things are progressing for you over this summer.
-Dave H.
I have run Sebring with several groups including multiple PCA chapters, NASA and Chin.
By far, I was most pleased with Chin and its instruction philosophy as well as the caliber of the drivers. This is often overlooked in my opinion. It's not fun when you cannot trust the people (or their cars) around you.
When I go into a turn as a passing situation, I know the person in front of me will brake early and allow me the inside. I will brake late and aggressively. He will tuck in behind me like a ballet with little loss of momentum. How do I know this? We discuss it in pre-event meetings with our specific run group. I also personally have met this driver since I have now run many events with Chin. As you mentioned in your first post, It makes it more enjoyable when you are track friends and you respect each other. I recommend you run with Chin as your first choice and also the PCA DEs by Suncoast and Citrus regions. You will find we circulate in the same groups. If you see me in the fall, say hello. I'm dark blue 2014 Cayman S #91. I'll take you out in my car and we can discuss how things are progressing for you over this summer.
-Dave H.
Originally Posted by grrrmonster
Lively discussions. Seek out another instructor. One with a passion for instructing. They're at every event. Ask the chief instructor or classroom instructor.
Yes there is a lot of variation in those in the instructor corps- we're l volunteers at PCA events. You'll find differences in how different regions run events. I've been instructing for 29 years now- trust me there are some regions I just won't run with anymore.
Some great points being made- but remember s DE event is about learning and having fun. Not lap times or speed. Always a great suggestion to discuss with instructor the GOS for the weekend.
I'm amazed that some instructors want to drive a students car. I sure don't. Been offered some dream vehicles- but I do t want to be behind the wheel when an IMS bearing lets go, a meteorite falls out of the sky and hits the hood, or some other application of Murphys Law. I just don't want the awkward conversation afterwards.
And I've been on track driving front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, all wheel drive, front engine, rear engine, mid engine, blown engine, red cars and yellow cars. Big HP and next to no HP. I can help a student improve his skills and become s better driver. Virtually every student I've ever had ( including a couple pro drivers) had something you could help them with.
Regarding how many "tenths"- I've found the nut behind the wheel was the most limiting factor. 7/10ths of a drivers ability is a good zone to work in- and then improve what that 7/10ths is. Most every car is more capable than its driver, particularly with the cars that have produced over the last several years.
I'd urge you to become a student of the craft, and learn as much as you can.
Would love to have you at one of the regions up north for an event to contrast your recent experience. FWIW I'm part of the Allegheny Region. I can also vouch for great events run by NORPCA, MORPCA and OVRPCA
All the best
Yes there is a lot of variation in those in the instructor corps- we're l volunteers at PCA events. You'll find differences in how different regions run events. I've been instructing for 29 years now- trust me there are some regions I just won't run with anymore.
Some great points being made- but remember s DE event is about learning and having fun. Not lap times or speed. Always a great suggestion to discuss with instructor the GOS for the weekend.
I'm amazed that some instructors want to drive a students car. I sure don't. Been offered some dream vehicles- but I do t want to be behind the wheel when an IMS bearing lets go, a meteorite falls out of the sky and hits the hood, or some other application of Murphys Law. I just don't want the awkward conversation afterwards.
And I've been on track driving front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, all wheel drive, front engine, rear engine, mid engine, blown engine, red cars and yellow cars. Big HP and next to no HP. I can help a student improve his skills and become s better driver. Virtually every student I've ever had ( including a couple pro drivers) had something you could help them with.
Regarding how many "tenths"- I've found the nut behind the wheel was the most limiting factor. 7/10ths of a drivers ability is a good zone to work in- and then improve what that 7/10ths is. Most every car is more capable than its driver, particularly with the cars that have produced over the last several years.
I'd urge you to become a student of the craft, and learn as much as you can.
Would love to have you at one of the regions up north for an event to contrast your recent experience. FWIW I'm part of the Allegheny Region. I can also vouch for great events run by NORPCA, MORPCA and OVRPCA
All the best
05-28-2016, 08:45 PM
#112
I would not write off the entire PCA. It is a great resource.
My last PCA instructor was very cognizant of not doing ANYTHING that would make me uncomfortable.
He felt doing a session in the rain was a good idea, but totally respected if I decided I didn't want to take my car out onto a wet track.
During the rain session, he ASKED "Can I adjust your intermittent wipers?" before reaching over and changing the ****.
My last PCA instructor was very cognizant of not doing ANYTHING that would make me uncomfortable.
He felt doing a session in the rain was a good idea, but totally respected if I decided I didn't want to take my car out onto a wet track.
During the rain session, he ASKED "Can I adjust your intermittent wipers?" before reaching over and changing the ****.
05-29-2016, 12:07 AM
#113
A few people have complained about PCA's actual track time.
I think I've gotten four 20 mins. sessions per $325 day with PCA DE.
Always seems like more than enough.
Exactly how much track time do you get with a $600 event like Chin?
I think I've gotten four 20 mins. sessions per $325 day with PCA DE.
Always seems like more than enough.
Exactly how much track time do you get with a $600 event like Chin?
05-29-2016, 12:49 AM
#114
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Chin gives you four thirty minute sessions each day plus a one hour happy hour at the end of the day shared by all groups. I usually skip the first half hour of the happy hour since the traffic seems to clear the second half. Lots of time.
I learned the most from my Chin instructors. I now race with quite a few.
Stu
I learned the most from my Chin instructors. I now race with quite a few.
Stu
05-29-2016, 12:57 AM
#115
Recently did two-day Chin event at Watkins Glen for $750. First day started with 30-min. open (track orientation) session under yellow, followed by four 30-minute sessions in run group, followed by final 30-minute open session. Second day was same except for no final 30-minute open session. That was a ton of track time, no matter how you slice it. Very well-run event, too, along with AWESOME instructor. Highly recommend.
05-29-2016, 06:49 AM
#116
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Recently did two-day Chin event at Watkins Glen for $750. First day started with 30-min. open (track orientation) session under yellow, followed by four 30-minute sessions in run group, followed by final 30-minute open session. Second day was same except for no final 30-minute open session. That was a ton of track time, no matter how you slice it. Very well-run event, too, along with AWESOME instructor. Highly recommend.
I'm a huge believer in Chin's approach. At PittRace with them right now. Good people, good approach to sharing the track (heavy emphasis on the concept of a faster driver, not a faster car, deserving a point by and cooperation on track as a team) and a commitment to safety. In fact, they position proper and timely points bys as a safety issue as it spreads out traffic when done well and all else equal, you're safer when you're alone. (I'm dramatically oversimplifying here).
Only downside to Chin for people on the novice end of the hobby is that you sometimes need to be at your computer when registration opens to guarantee yourself a spot. Not so though for more advanced drivers.
05-29-2016, 08:12 AM
#117
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I did all 5 days of the Skip Barber racing school, and found that to be quite well run and enjoyable.
05-29-2016, 08:57 AM
#118
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Mark Dreyer
Try the Suncoast region PCA, or Chin, . They both run events at Sebring. The organizers and instructors are very good with both clubs. PBOC is good also but there is less track time as they share racing and DE on the same weekend.
I did all 5 days of the Skip Barber racing school, and found that to be quite well run and enjoyable.
I did all 5 days of the Skip Barber racing school, and found that to be quite well run and enjoyable.
05-29-2016, 10:23 AM
#119
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Thanks Mark. At what point of your advancement did you do Skip Barber? I have the feeling it can be a good way to set up solid foundations while later on it could help polish the skills somewhat. In the end I think the schedule will decide for me as it looks I will only be able to do it late this year.
05-29-2016, 11:17 AM
#120
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Originally Posted by aalencar
Thanks Mark. At what point of your advancement did you do Skip Barber? I have the feeling it can be a good way to set up solid foundations while later on it could help polish the skills somewhat. In the end I think the schedule will decide for me as it looks I will only be able to do it late this year.