JayG

I have done 6 PCA DE with the San Diego region and can't say that I have heard ANYONE complain about bad instructors. In fact , the opposite is true, many praise the instructors. Then again, the San Diego region PCA is know for great events and great instructors.

I will be doing my first POC DE in a few weeks, I expect that the caliber of instructor is equal to PCA.

Never stay with an instructor that is a bad fit for you. Ask for someone different. Our region makes it crystal clear that if for any reason you are unhappy with your instructor, ask for a different one. No problem, easy peazy, you get someone different.

Maybe also it has something to do with the CDI actually looking at the drivers and pairing them with a compatible instructor.

mrbill_fl

I would also recommend the Skip Barber Schools.

Pro instructors, are pro's for a reason, beyond their driving talent. I did the 3 day race school a long time ago, then did some lapping days.


IMHO all of the clubs that run HPDE rely on volunteer instructors. its a mixed bag... Some are better teachers than others. At a big race weekend you'll find some racers doing double duty in order to lower their entry fees. You might not get their full attention because of that.

When I'm instructing, I may tell a student to do something that doesn't make sense, but its to break some other bad habit. like if you keep wanting to shift early coming out of a turn. I may get you apexing way later than needed so the car is going straight when you upshift. -its wrong but safe.

My #1 goal, is getting your car home, rolling on 4 wheels at the end of the weekend..

mrbill_fl

+100, I would never be offended if a student wanted a switch.
-I tend to talk a lot, and that may bother some. Find a better match!

I'm just here to help you get better at a sport I love, because someone helped me back when I needed it.

ExMB

1) He is in FL
2) Once again is there a ref that rates regions that can compare them against others
3) Please stay on topic and no sales pitches that cannot be verified and/or compared against others

Coulthard Fan

I'm your neighbor here on the beach and an instructor with a bunch of clubs in S Fla for the last 6 years (and in the mid-Atlantic before that). I think you are finding that there is some variance in the driving skills and/or interpersonal skills of instructors in all the clubs down here, but it's hard to say that makes any particular club "good" or "bad." Skippy or other professional schools, again in my experience (10 times I think) have a pretty high standard for instruction, and I used them to try tracks all around the country which can also be a fun benefit. Don't give up on us locals though, including some really talented pro coaches, just ask around who's a good instructor for the next event you are going to. E.g. If it's Chin then a good Porsche guy is Eric Armstrong.

ProCoach

Another shout out for fellow pro coach, David Tuaty. David is an exceptional option in Florida and elsewhere.

I think pro schools are important. Lucas Oil, Bertil Roos, SBRS (to a certain degree, depends on the instructor roster) are all very good at reinforcing best execution of fundamental skills. If you want to go really fast, that is what is necessary.

There are many well experienced, excellent and communicative volunteer instructors in a variety of PCA, Audi and BMWCCA DE, as well as for-profits like Chin and TrackDaze. Of course, there are some who are less so, as there are in pro schools and in the pro coach ranks.

The number one reason both novice and advanced drivers hire well regarded pro coaches is because they're looking for VERY specific, detailed and well-founded answers to their questions. Answers that are not opinions. This is because most have received seriously conflicting advice and instruction.

The whole idea of teaching or emphasizing wholly different techniques for different experience levels is a good example of that. The dichotomy of "school line" versus "race line" contributes immensely to the confusion sewn in even the most experienced driver's approach. The conflict between a particular classroom curriculum and what is taught in-car is a big issue. And the OP is right on in raising this issue, as colleagues like Ross Bentley are, too. After nearly three decades of doing this (before it was cool ), there's plenty of room for improvement from organizations, instructor corps (both volunteer and pro) and classroom instruction.

It's a tough deal, but it's a big world and there are many choices to achieve similar goals, be it in DE, Club or entry level pro racing... If an organization, Region, marque Club chapter or an individual's name keeps popping up repeatedly in a positive way, that's probably a pretty good indicator. But it's no guarantee...

docwyte

I don't drive students cars, period for the same reasons listed before. I just don't want anything to happen and anything I need to show a student I can show them in my car.

I was just at the track yesterday with a student. Total novice, in a Toyota Camry. I took her out in my car to try and show her the "flowing" line. All my other analogies failed as she didn't ski, bike, etc.

When I take a student out I always make sure they're comfortable with the speed I'm going, even though I've backed off considerably. I want to be 100% consistent with my line, hitting all the marks and going slow enough that I can point out landmarks etc...

hf1

+1

aalencar

I will work on registrering for some events tonight and will sure ask for your advice. Great to know I have a neighbor on RL. Would love to meet for a drink if you spare some minutes.

I am glad you brought this up. Instructor 3 indeed tell me my line was a DE line and he wanted me to follow his race line. It was my third time in Sebring and I kind of had a line I could follow with my eyes closed. In some points it indeed looked like his line was faster but in some others it did not. Maybe it was me having a hard time adjusting. But I asked around and some folks did tell me my previous instructor was faster than #3, which just added to the confusion.

After all the great input from this thread I am really over this confusion and actually looking forward to the different opinions from different instructors.

Then the issue of a private instructor. How is this usually arranged? They join you on an event and instruct during novice sessions? I feel you would need to be a little more advanced to really fully benefit from a private instructor. At this point I have so much to learn I am not even sure what to ask. I am pretty certain a "regular" instructor would fit the bill right now.

ExMB

Peter (ProCoach) and Dave (Veloce Raptor) will most likely chime in but here is my take. Call recommended ones and discuss it with them. That way you will be a lot smarter when you select one and have an idea of the proposed lesson plan going in.

rbahr

I did this once, I used Chin. Had the instructor for the weekend. Got to go out a fair amount, and since I was already instructing, they listed both of us as instructors, so things were pretty easy... except, of course, me being able to do what the coach wanted - something about being repeatable to 1-3 inches through every corner...

Ray

ProCoach

The OP has already pointed this out and I will reiterate, no one NEEDS a pro coach. There are plenty of excellent Regions and programs that have a good curriculum and dedicated, trained and experienced instructor corps. The OP's query and observations have been great and folks have responded with a LOT of good info.

IF you're interested in working with a pro coach or instructor, exMB has hit the nail on the head. There are many pro and ex-pro drivers who work as pro instructors, but few full-time pro coaches who work one-on-one with drivers, which is why it's extremely important to MAKE SURE that the pro you "interview" has goals that match your goals and specifically, that there is a clear, detailed and ordered methodology for the day or days you will spend together.

All of the recognized pros I know can supply this information and references, if needed, but trust your gut. If the communication style via email or phone is good and to your liking, that's a good sign, because THE EFFECTIVENESS of communications is of primary importance.

Nail down the costs up front. Some coaches work with small groups that split fees, some include expenses within their daily fee, some are a daily rate (some with a minimum number of days) plus reasonable expenses. KNOW up front what this engagement will cost.

There should be a video and data component, and you need to know whether your pro coach is familiar with YOUR system (or the better yet, provide their own portable system or systems for the engagement, if you are not already equipped) and how much of your evaluation and analysis will be using data and/or video.

Clarify whether or not they ride with you (or drive your car with you in it). This last option varies widely among pro coaches.

Use the conversation to answer ALL questions you might have AND get a CLEAR vision of exactly how the engagement and curriculum will be scheduled.

The key to make sure that the pro coach will meet or exceed your expectations is to have a wide ranging and frank discussion about what is or is not included or going to happen.

While I personally feel that you should be a solo driver to get the most advantage out of a pro coach, there are colleagues of mine who "substitute" for assigned instructors (at events that allow this and with prior approval) and ride with novice and novice/intermediate students for particular events. I routinely work with clients who are in black or red at PCA DE's, also at Chin, David Murry Track Days and many other organizations. Just need to work it out up front and before the event with whoever you hire to work with you.

Veloce Raptor

I agree with what Peter said . If you do interview people to hire, IMO only look at folks like Peter and me who professionally coach full time...who do this for a living .

Also...shame on the instructor who insisted on teaching a "race line". There is no such thing. There are many lines. There are fast and slow lines, there are geometrically effective lines and defensive lines. Over time you'll learn many and decide for yourself which are effective and comfortable and safe for you.

Manifold

In case it hasn't already been mentioned in this thread, OP and other students should note that students can request particular instructors at events of Chin, PCA, etc. The request won't always be granted (eg, same instructor may have already been requested by other students, or CI may want to assign that instructor to a particular student), but often it will.

You can find out who the best instructors are by asking around. Getting an instructor like that is a bargain from a cost perspective, and such instructors can usually help even advanced DE drivers.

For solo drivers at Chin events, they can also request a coaching session at no additional charge, and often just one such session gives drivers plenty to work on for the rest of the event.

Gofishracing

Great info here.