Originally Posted by OmniGLH

I immediately experienced the "flip side" argument, 2 turns in, especially with the more experienced AX'er. Sharp, jerky movements. Some sharp enough to generate a little bit of a slide, etc. HARSH on the throttle, brakes, etc. all of which really caused the car to move and pitch excessively. He was not cocky, receptive to instruction, etc., IMO confident (not OVER confident) and under control. Pitch the car and correct it, etc. But he really struggled with slowing everything down, input wise.

The other, less experienced AX'er was still abrupt but not nearly as excessive. At the end of the day, if I would've been running a stopwatch (I wasn't), I'd say he was going faster around the course than the more experienced AX'er. For sure he had more potential. He had less AX habits to unlearn, and overall was much much smoother.

Originally Posted by jscott82

As Ross said at the very beginning...

If you have saftey equip, no speed limit. If not, keep it under 120 (or whatever is reasonable, I don't know).

Simple..

Originally Posted by TXE36

I'm shocked, shocked, to hear this...well no. You have described the two AX students I've had. Took at least a weekend to unlearn the rough stuff.

I think the problem with AX is the low speeds. AX experience doesn't teach the higher speed stuff where smoothness matters so much more. I suspect that teaching AX to an experienced track driver is easier, but I don't know. For example, from the track experience I know I can really throw a car around sub 40 MPH without a whole lot of risk. OTOH, AX guys probably learn car control quicker.

Perhaps I finally need to try an AX just to see how I'd do...

I haven't experienced "unfelt" PSM yet as an instructor - I suspect the first time I do it will be unsettling. The students I've had that set it off, really set it off, no gray area here .

-Mike

Originally Posted by docwyte

So, Mikelly was at fault then because he didn't have complete control over his student? That's why they crashed?

My point is, as instructors, we're not the ones at the wheel! We're not the ones making the decisions of when/how hard to brake, when to turn in, when not to lift off the gas etc. We can tell the students when to do this but it's up to them to make that happen. Any number of small mistakes on their part can have dire consequences for us as instructors.

Mikelly was fairly comfortable with his student. Up until they crashed.

That's why I'm saying that this "control" you guys speak of is a fallacy.

Originally Posted by TXE36

I'm shocked, shocked, to hear this...well no. You have described the two AX students I've had. Took at least a weekend to unlearn the rough stuff.

I think the problem with AX is the low speeds. AX experience doesn't teach the higher speed stuff where smoothness matters so much more. I suspect that teaching AX to an experienced track driver is easier, but I don't know. For example, from the track experience I know I can really throw a car around sub 40 MPH without a whole lot of risk. OTOH, AX guys probably learn car control quicker.

Perhaps I finally need to try an AX just to see how I'd do...

I haven't experienced "unfelt" PSM yet as an instructor - I suspect the first time I do it will be unsettling. The students I've had that set it off, really set it off, no gray area here .

-Mike

Originally Posted by Mikelly

Good thing I don't give two ****s about what some might think. Let them walk in my shoes for the last year and they might think twice before opening their pieholes.

Reality is these things happen. I felt INSTANTLY when he hesitated and then came off the throttle and I yelled GAS!!! After that, I just held on to the shoulder straps. Once your student loses their confidence and the control of the car, you are stuck and along for the ride. Nothing more. Anyone who thinks differently hasnt been there.

Originally Posted by Mikelly

I won an autox championship in 1995 by being very chopper and aggressive in the Modified/Preparred combined class. AutoXers do not make great road racers. This has been a myth for a very long time, in my opinion. Took many years for me to break those habits.

Originally Posted by winders

I think this is just another generalization. In my area of the country, PCA GGR, many of the better road racers started out as autocrossers.

There is no reason a great autocrosser cannot be a great road racer. Yes, there are some things that need to be done differently, but there are a lot of skills that directly transfer.

Originally Posted by TXE36

Note that I did not mean to imply they were unteachable...

-Mike

Originally Posted by jeffwhite

I have been a long-time visitor to this forum and enjoyed reading posts on various topics. I have not commented previously because I did not feel that I had anything particularly insightful to add. However, for this thread, perhaps I can.

I have been active in my local BMW chapter since 1998, track driving since 1999, involved in the driving events committee for 10+ years, the event organizer for 9 years and an instructor for 7 years. Ross Bentley has been our guest more than once. I can say that our #1 concern always has been and always will be participant safety. This commitment to safety starts with the very first communication to students, through Tech inspection procedures, the morning driver's meeting, classroom sessions and, ultimately, with the instructors. Our instructor training program is very rigorous starting with a year of pre-training then an intense 2-day program of on-track role playing coupled with classroom sessions. Instructor candidates are evaluated by 3 different experienced instructors before they graduate. Students can and will do stupid things at inopportune times but we try very hard to prepare our instructors to recognize the problem student and reign them in. Most students will straighten up if the instructor pulls them into the pits and says "I'm getting out of this car unless you start listening to me". We teach our instructors to limit what gear a student can be in and to limit their straight line speed as a way to keep them calm and under control.

I am astounded that some of you are attending events where 60%-90% of the time there is an impact incident. Our chapter runs 4-6 2-day events per year and we often go an entire season without an impact. Other years we have 1-2 over the course of a season. We're not perfect. I've been an instructor in a car that a non-serious tire wall impact when I didn't recognize soon enough that a student's hands weren't straight as we were headed off. This past month we had 72 students and 42 instructors at Summit main with no problems (the racers were a different story). Our instructors are slow to sign students off to solo and for a first-time solo we require 2 instructor sign-offs. It sometimes frustrates the students but it definitely keeps cars on the asphalt. My advice is that if you are running with groups where safety is not their #1 concern, vote with your feet and your wallet and go elsewhere.

I am also opposed to mandatory safety equipment. I have a low horsepower car that I drive to and from the track. I drive the car within its limits and have a ton of fun doing it. I recognize that there is a level of risk in this approach but I am not in the financial position to have a dedicated track car. We have other club members who are in a similar position. Mandating safety equipment does not also provide for smart driving - it is the latter that needs work.

This is a conversation that should never stop. We all have a role and a responsibility to work to make this sport as safe as it reasonably can be. Any time and any where you drive a car there is risk. I was once rear-ended in the paddock by a track vehicle. However, I always feel far safer on a race track than I do driving the NJ Turnpike or the Garden State Parkway.

Cheers,
Jeff

Originally Posted by the_vetman

Excellent post and thank you for your contribution.

Sounds like you guys have an excellent safety record. Unfortunately I see track incidents at the majority of DE events I attend (PCA, Chin, TrackDaze). Maybe they can learn some things from BMW clubs...

Originally Posted by HoBoJoe

Like not allowing convertibles?

Originally Posted by winders

I think this is just another generalization. In my area of the country, PCA GGR, many of the better road racers started out as autocrossers.

There is no reason a great autocrosser cannot be a great road racer. Yes, there are some things that need to be done differently, but there are a lot of skills that directly transfer.

Originally Posted by Mikelly

I made to "aggressive" a statement there... Autocrossers can be taught and you're right. In general they have good car control at lower speeds, but they start off pretty bad. There are things associated with autocross that simply don't transfer due to the speeds.

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