Thoughts on HPDE & Safety from Ross Bentley
08-26-2015, 08:35 PM
#151
Doug, The thread was started with the intent of getting ideas and suggestions. I gave mine. You can agree with them or not. The ability to share ideas and opinions is what I thought this whole process was about. Clearly you dont think we should do anything, and thats fine. I am of a different opinion, having dealt first hand with what happens when someone gets it wrong.
08-26-2015, 08:41 PM
#153
08-26-2015, 08:48 PM
#154
You are tossing around "solutions" without properly analyzing the the problems. It is folly to try to solve problems when you don't fully understand them.
08-26-2015, 09:00 PM
#155
Burning Brakes
Here's some suggestions for thought. No Dot R rubber (or slicks) at DE's without upgraded safety gear in car. Won't have much impact on the GT3 guys & newer Vettes etc. coming from the factory with sticky rubber but it was (is?) the way the Skippy folks ran their programs. "Instructors" - we are DE qualified, not racing coaches, leave that to the pros. Kills me when I hear a guy in the pits bragging about getting the guy to go faster, brake later etc. when this is a DE and that will come as the guy/gals comfort level comes up. Lastly, I am sorry if this sounds mysterious or dramatic but it may be likely that the poor guy would have had the same outcome had the car been more race prepped from the safety standpoint. Hopefully, not to be morbid but in the interest of safety the COD will be revealed. RA is my home track & I know a few folks who "are in the know" but I'm not going to pass along what I heard until substantiated by an official. By circumstance I happened to see the car after the tragedy but looked away as soon as I could. I think the death was a freak accident that had nothing to do with the potential speed that can be reached on the back straight at RAtlanta.
Last edited by chrisc; 08-26-2015 at 09:40 PM.
08-26-2015, 09:16 PM
#156
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Student progression is not a problem - that is the solution. Students going too fast too soon is the problem.
08-26-2015, 10:01 PM
#157
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08-26-2015, 10:24 PM
#158
08-27-2015, 11:28 AM
#159
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Lol, I have no idea who Scott is and not trying to compete with anyone.
I am risk taking person. I, still at 48, surf 40 to 50 foot face all over the world, have 10 + inverts on snow boards and wake boards and spend as much time as possible inverted in a Pitts, Citabria or Cap 21. Perhaps I am not a good person to weigh in on such subject matter, but I am pretty adverse to that which other people propose to constantly reign us in or save us from ourselves.
I have lost friends throughout the years on tracks (Ben Keaton, Dr. Robert Sauter at Bondurant and etc.). Things can certainly change in an instant at high speeds.
How about Erik's crash in the laces at Watkin's Glen in 2005? Was that a speed issue or a green driver signed off too soon? He hit at about 70 or 80 mph. Do we propose keeping people below 80 mph?
So implement speed limits. What speed limit to your propose? People die in car crashes all the time at speeds much less than what you may propose.
I busted a femur racing in the 80s in a relative slow part of a track. I am still not convinced it is solely a speed issue and no one has indicated how I was wrong when I said most track incidents seem to occur in more technical parts of a track where speed is not maxed out.
I am risk taking person. I, still at 48, surf 40 to 50 foot face all over the world, have 10 + inverts on snow boards and wake boards and spend as much time as possible inverted in a Pitts, Citabria or Cap 21. Perhaps I am not a good person to weigh in on such subject matter, but I am pretty adverse to that which other people propose to constantly reign us in or save us from ourselves.
I have lost friends throughout the years on tracks (Ben Keaton, Dr. Robert Sauter at Bondurant and etc.). Things can certainly change in an instant at high speeds.
How about Erik's crash in the laces at Watkin's Glen in 2005? Was that a speed issue or a green driver signed off too soon? He hit at about 70 or 80 mph. Do we propose keeping people below 80 mph?
So implement speed limits. What speed limit to your propose? People die in car crashes all the time at speeds much less than what you may propose.
I busted a femur racing in the 80s in a relative slow part of a track. I am still not convinced it is solely a speed issue and no one has indicated how I was wrong when I said most track incidents seem to occur in more technical parts of a track where speed is not maxed out.
08-27-2015, 11:48 AM
#160
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I kept students reigned in when I was in the car at HPDEs. When working with students in Formulas, I would pull them off to the side immediately and tell them they are at the limits, to back off a bit and focus on lines. At Skippy, it was a bit easier to do because sessions focused more a just a few turns at a time with lead cars keeping speeds reigned in somewhat.
For instance, I always personally thought turn 6 at Laguna to be more dangerous than entering the cork screw at high speed and I personally had more issues at 4 and 5. The cork screw to me was easy. The kink at Barber is way more troublesome than the turns off the straights (1, 5 and 7) and the worst spot to me is actually going over the tunnel. I had a close fried get hurt pretty bad here and I nearly lost it once when actually passing Veloce Raptor in turn 12 and being off line going over the tunnel. Rear end wiggled a bunch, but I kept my foot in it.
Anywho, the point is speed limits on straights to me is a knee jerk reaction that has little to do with overall safety except for the rare instance, like here, when fluid is dropped or someone has a mechanical failure, blowout and etc.
08-27-2015, 12:35 PM
#161
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And I have had friends and acquaintances seriously and fatally injured at DE's and races over the last thirty years...
None of them were at vMax, many were precipitated by a medical event... Are we going to require medicals for DE's, including baseline EKG's and stress tests for those it is deemed necessary? I think not.
08-27-2015, 02:44 PM
#162
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I personally think this would be a step in the right direction, and would provide collateral benefit as well. HPDE and on track activities could save more lives than it takes if that were the case.
08-27-2015, 03:23 PM
#164
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A point I don't recall being mentioned so far is unintended safety consequences due to "human factors". Will speed limits on straights contribute to drivers and instructors feeling more safe and paying less attention to safety equipment and tech? Will they be distracted by looking at the speedometer and miss braking points, flags, and things happening on track? Will they try to "make it up" by going faster in corners, where the risk is generally higher in the first place? Will passing get screwed up because one or both drivers are afraid of violating the speed limit? Everything works as a system - you can't change an individual policy like this and not expect side effects, some of which could be undesirable and could increase overall risk. Physics, kinetic energy, etc. matter, but so do the thoughts and decisions happening in the heads of drivers and instructors.
08-27-2015, 03:29 PM
#165
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A point I don't recall being mentioned so far is unintended safety consequences due to "human factors". Will speed limits on straights contribute to drivers and instructors feeling more safe and paying less attention to safety equipment and tech? Will they be distracted by looking at the speedometer and miss braking points, flags, and things happening on track? Will they try to "make it up" by going faster in corners, where the risk is generally higher in the first place? Will passing get screwed up because one or both drivers are afraid of violating the speed limit? Everything works as a system - you can't change an individual policy like this and not expect side effects, some of which could be undesirable and could increase overall risk. Physics, kinetic energy, etc. matter, but so do the thoughts and decisions happening in the heads of drivers and instructors.