Correct. It's not racing - but that does not mean that advanced run groups and the speeds/conditions seen there are materially safer than racing (or really any different at all). If you genuinely think that, you're ignoring the seriousness of what we do.

I want people to enjoy their cars.

But you can't keep trying to move the goalposts here - we're talking about increasing the safety requirements for advanced drivers, not on new drivers. If they've spent enough time on the track to develop the skills to run in the fastest groups, they're already invested in the sport.

And the idea that just because most drivers already have the gear should mean that we don't need to make it mandatory is just as absurd as suggesting that just because most people will check their brake pad thickness before an event, we shouldn't have to make that kind of safety check a requirement!

 

I have been doing DEs since 1998, and over those 150-200 events I have seen the following:

A) at least 1 off course excursion involving vehicle contact or damage at probably 60% of those events
B) many incidents occurred as a result of changing track conditions (e.g. change in weather) or simply pushing too hard
C) most, but not all, occurred without an instructor in the car
D) in many cases the incident was made more severe by the driver trying to "save" the car after putting 2 or 4 wheels off

In the span of those events, there was 1 death that I know of and very few serious injuries (less than 5). The lone death occurred as a result of a side impact in a GT3 resulting in a broken neck. This occurrence is what made me go to a halo seat.

 

JasOnn,

You are really putting words in my mouth...impressive.

 

I started in this crazy hobby in 1997. Started instructing and went racing in 2000. Things have changed greatly during the 18 years since I first turned a wheel on the track. The cars have gotten faster, the safety equipment has improved, and the tracks themselves have made changes in the interest of improving safety. But mainly, the general attitude towards safety has also changed. When I got into this motorsports industry 10 years ago, I heard so many different objections to getting a HANS device. Rarely did you see them being used, even by solo drivers. The general attitude was a HANS cost the same as a set of tires, two track event weekends etc, and that they had always been fine without one. I was at Watkins Glen for the Vintage GP and was showing a HANS to a vintage racer driving an old Lotus who was considering purchasing one. His buddy felt it would be a waste and told him he could just tether his helmet to the roll hoop. Yes, that's what his buddy said. Nowadays, you see more people wearing a head and neck restraint than those who are not. Racing is a moot point since we are all required at this point to wear one.

My point of all this is that most of us on our own have improved our safety gear on our own. Sometimes unfortunately, it takes an incident to give us the push we need. As instructors, can we always maintain complete control of our student? Nope. But we as a group can set the example that the newbies will follow. There's no way we can make this hobby 100% safe, unless we start holding DE's on our XBox. But, we can all take steps to reduce the chances of something bad happening. That means all of us, the car clubs who host the events, the tracks etc. Let's just be smart and think it through.

 

Because it was pointed out in the other thread, not in this thread which is just based on RB's response...the driver in question who died was in NASA's HPDE 2 grouping...which is equivalent to PCA yellow/ blue. Not likely a group where any of these mandates for safety equipment would have been anyhow.

 

Agreed - I pointed this out in my original post.

Frankly, we don't know what/if anything might have saved that driver. Would a speed limit on the straight have helped? Its too early to say and it almost doesn't matter. Because we can bring him back.

BUT, we can step back and look at the hobby as a whole and use this tragedy as a catalyst to implement changes that might save someone's else's life or limb, in the future!

 

So, Mikelly was at fault then because he didn't have complete control over his student? That's why they crashed?

My point is, as instructors, we're not the ones at the wheel! We're not the ones making the decisions of when/how hard to brake, when to turn in, when not to lift off the gas etc. We can tell the students when to do this but it's up to them to make that happen. Any number of small mistakes on their part can have dire consequences for us as instructors.

Mikelly was fairly comfortable with his student. Up until they crashed.

That's why I'm saying that this "control" you guys speak of is a fallacy.

 

+1.
1. My experience at PCA HPDE's is that at 80% of the events, there is at least one car damaged from an off course excursion. Sometimes there are multiple damaged cars. Over 90% of the cars damaged are in the black and red groups.

2. What part of your body gives the most feedback as to if the car is in control or out of control? It is your butt. If you are not held tight in the seat, ie having a 5 or 6 point harness in a race seat with a halo, then the feedback to your body is delayed or does not reach your body before it is too late to react. This applies to experienced white solo and above.

3. If all instructors want the novice to have the traction control on, how is the driver ever going learn how to control the car when the driver gets in the "s..t" when driving solo?

4 I believe most off course excursions are caused by carrying too high a speed into the turn in.

5. That being said, the driver exacerbates the situation by over correcting, inputs more steering when less might help or slight lift of the throttle for a front engine car.

6. Does not PCA require an incident report for each accident? Data!

 

Until you go for a ride with a student that ends up somewhere you don't want to be, you don't realize that ultimately it's the student that is in control, regardless of how good an instructor you are, how well they listened before, or what speed you are going.

 

+1 and more

 

You've already done it so no need to ask my approval.


Again, what many here are proposing is a requirement for safety gear at advanced levels. If you have the money for a fast car, slicks, and other add ons to make you go faster, you have a few dollars for some safety gear! Its really that simple.

 

For a quick refresher, My "Student" crash was not "my" student. Guy asked if I would go out with him on the last session of the day. This after he told me he had been advised to move up to group three.

I made several mistakes, the first of which was not finding his instructor to have a discussion. The second of which was getting in the car after he said he didnt have his log book.

In my case, he was doing VERY WELL, until he got out of his comfort zone and lifted mid apex on turn 9 at SP main. Car rotated at a very high rate of speed taking a hard right into the tire wall on the inside of Turn 9, hitting the tires, compressing them, then launching the car into the air.

Kidneys swelled into my lungs and it took a solid 8 months to get back to a point where I could run and exercise, and I am just now back to fitness levels I was at prior to the accident.

 

Wow.

Sorry to hear, bro.

 

Thanks Man!

August 15th will be 1 year... I live it every day, and July 11th-12th of this year was my first time back instructing. If I'm honest, I wasn't sure I'd be ready, but it went off without a hitch and my student had a good time in his 2015 Honda Civic Si!


Back on topic, Seriously, I'm torn because it isn't like instructors get jacked up everyday or students die on course everyday. We are very fortunate that we have these programs available for people to take advantage of. I really like the idea of restricting UTQG for beginner/intermediate students. I also like the idea of full safety for anyone white-red... But... I for one have my track car available less than a street car. I can see where this would impact instructor participation in general. The day of my accident I drove up last minute and didn't drive on track. I was just helping out the CI. How many guys are going to instruct if they're not getting on track? Some of us do, but many don't. There are pros and cons to everything that has been suggested. We should be able to have open dialogue on this, as I believe it is an important topic. Will we accomplish anything with it? Who knows.

 

Despite your post there are some here who would argue that you were supposed to do something to prevent this! If you don't have a steering wheel and brake pedal there was no way to prevent the crash the way you described it.

There is an instructor in our region who had to have shoulder surgery due to a crash with an advanced driver. He now won't get into a car that does not have full belts and halo seats.

Thanks for getting back in the saddle as that took courage! Instructors are the backbone of our sport so I give you a lot of credit.