Thoughts on HPDE & Safety from Ross Bentley
08-13-2015, 09:14 PM
#91
I'm at Pocono this weekend. Passing drills at lower speed. Some new ideas to be implemented even before this thread. Radio communications as well as in seat. Should be interesting
HOD
HOD
08-13-2015, 09:15 PM
#92
People here are not saying you have control of the driver's inputs. You cannot prevent physical mistakes and errors made in the moment.
But, you do have influence over the attitude of the driver and you do set (or should set) expectations. It should be pretty obvious if a driver is driving over 90% of his ability and approaching 100%...and 90% is probably too much at HPDE events in cars with stock or near stock safety equipment. After all, we are not talking about race coaching at a test day with full blown race cars with appropriate safety equipment, are we?
If an instructor lets an HPDE driver drive so close to his limits....he is making mistake at putting himself and the student at risk.
08-13-2015, 09:27 PM
#93
I want people to enjoy their cars.
But you can't keep trying to move the goalposts here - we're talking about increasing the safety requirements for advanced drivers, not on new drivers. If they've spent enough time on the track to develop the skills to run in the fastest groups, they're already invested in the sport.
But you can't keep trying to move the goalposts here - we're talking about increasing the safety requirements for advanced drivers, not on new drivers. If they've spent enough time on the track to develop the skills to run in the fastest groups, they're already invested in the sport.
08-13-2015, 09:46 PM
#94
Rennlist Member
That's exactly the crux of the issue. What do you do with the advanced student who brings his sole car, DD out? Make him turn it into a track car so it has the proper safety equipment? Or tell him to go buy a track car?
I made the conscious decision to sell my stupidly fast DD supercharged E46 M3 and buy a cheaper track only car so I could put the proper level of safety equipment in it. I was uncomfortable with the speeds I was hitting in the M3 with basically no additional safety equipment.
However, not everyone will do that, so what's the next step?
I made the conscious decision to sell my stupidly fast DD supercharged E46 M3 and buy a cheaper track only car so I could put the proper level of safety equipment in it. I was uncomfortable with the speeds I was hitting in the M3 with basically no additional safety equipment.
However, not everyone will do that, so what's the next step?
08-13-2015, 10:22 PM
#95
Rennlist Member
As Ross said at the very beginning...
If you have saftey equip, no speed limit. If not, keep it under 120 (or whatever is reasonable, I don't know).
Simple..
If you have saftey equip, no speed limit. If not, keep it under 120 (or whatever is reasonable, I don't know).
Simple..
08-13-2015, 10:25 PM
#96
Since we are talking about HPDE all you who advocate "improving safety requirements", please explain how you improve safety in a dual use car without compromising safety when it is a DOT legal streetcar. Please post up any study or data or even a computer crash analysis of safety system you might implement compared to OEM safety testing and data.
I also agree with what hf1 said earlier. For those claiming that most advanced drivers have safety systems anyway: why is there a need for requirement then?
08-13-2015, 10:29 PM
#97
Excellent point and I must admit that I do not have a good answer. I learned on a 2008 Porsche with PSM and all the nannies and - now driving with PSM off - know what the newbies are going through learning on the newer cars. However, it's comforting (for me at least) to have that safety net as an instructor now sitting in the passenger seat.......
08-13-2015, 10:54 PM
#99
Burning Brakes
"Most" does not mean "all." In matters of safety it should not be controversial to suggest that a minumum should exist for ALL, even if that minimum is already widely accepted by MOST. Quite the contrary: if there's already a consensus, making it a requirement only affects the outliers.
08-14-2015, 01:29 AM
#100
Rennlist Member
In the local NASA chapter I'd have to say that the majority of cars in the TT and HPDE4 group do NOT have any safety equipment other than stock, particularly the letter TT groups. Once you get to TT1-3, the majority of those cars do have safety equipment but not all of them.
In the local PCA group I'd say that more of the Black/Orange cars have more safety equipment vs NASA but there are still quite a few that are stock.
Not sure a maximum straight line speed limit would do much good, maybe that would eliminate issues at the braking zones at the end of straights but my suspicion is that most accidents happen in the corners.
My one track incident happened when a Cobra replica lost it passing a car behind me and crashed into me. A speed limit wouldn't have helped there...
In the local PCA group I'd say that more of the Black/Orange cars have more safety equipment vs NASA but there are still quite a few that are stock.
Not sure a maximum straight line speed limit would do much good, maybe that would eliminate issues at the braking zones at the end of straights but my suspicion is that most accidents happen in the corners.
My one track incident happened when a Cobra replica lost it passing a car behind me and crashed into me. A speed limit wouldn't have helped there...
08-14-2015, 02:09 AM
#101
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Just back the hell up!
People here are not saying you have control of the driver's inputs. You cannot prevent physical mistakes and errors made in the moment.
But, you do have influence over the attitude of the driver and you do set (or should set) expectations. It should be pretty obvious if a driver is driving over 90% of his ability and approaching 100%...and 90% is probably too much at HPDE events in cars with stock or near stock safety equipment. After all, we are not talking about race coaching at a test day with full blown race cars with appropriate safety equipment, are we?
If an instructor lets an HPDE driver drive so close to his limits....he is making mistake at putting himself and the student at risk.
People here are not saying you have control of the driver's inputs. You cannot prevent physical mistakes and errors made in the moment.
But, you do have influence over the attitude of the driver and you do set (or should set) expectations. It should be pretty obvious if a driver is driving over 90% of his ability and approaching 100%...and 90% is probably too much at HPDE events in cars with stock or near stock safety equipment. After all, we are not talking about race coaching at a test day with full blown race cars with appropriate safety equipment, are we?
If an instructor lets an HPDE driver drive so close to his limits....he is making mistake at putting himself and the student at risk.
OK, I backed up. Nope, didn't change my view.
I'm not an instructor, but I have been instructed many many times. Although I am HPDE4 I still ask for instructors because I want to continue to learn. I also spend money on professional coaching.
A coach can exert a certain amount of control over a student, but they cannot prevent an accident, even if the student is not driving 10/10. Sure, a good instructor can sense a student's attitude and skill level but they can't prevent an accident.
I have all the safety gear already - there is nothing else to buy for me. The only dog I have in this fight is if track days are shut down because the insurance goes away due to losses. That is the real risk here and I think the tracks and clubs should get ahead of the issue before it is decided for us.
Lastly, I agree that mandating safety equipment in the lower run groups would kill of DE events. But you know what will really kill off DE events? A lack of track insurance.
08-14-2015, 01:38 PM
#102
My PCA region is having this discussion right now. Based on a survey done of instructors, most do not want to sit right seat in high HP cars, especially street cars. This to me is the biggest issue threatening DE programs. Unless it can be figured out how to get them out of the cars entirely, without willing and able instructors all DE programs will fail.
For PCA its going to take National to set rules. Does anyone know if they are considering it?
For PCA its going to take National to set rules. Does anyone know if they are considering it?
08-14-2015, 03:10 PM
#103
My PCA region is having this discussion right now. Based on a survey done of instructors, most do not want to sit right seat in high HP cars, especially street cars. This to me is the biggest issue threatening DE programs. Unless it can be figured out how to get them out of the cars entirely, without willing and able instructors all DE programs will fail.
08-14-2015, 03:52 PM
#104
Rennlist Member
I have been a long-time visitor to this forum and enjoyed reading posts on various topics. I have not commented previously because I did not feel that I had anything particularly insightful to add. However, for this thread, perhaps I can.
I have been active in my local BMW chapter since 1998, track driving since 1999, involved in the driving events committee for 10+ years, the event organizer for 9 years and an instructor for 7 years. Ross Bentley has been our guest more than once. I can say that our #1 concern always has been and always will be participant safety. This commitment to safety starts with the very first communication to students, through Tech inspection procedures, the morning driver's meeting, classroom sessions and, ultimately, with the instructors. Our instructor training program is very rigorous starting with a year of pre-training then an intense 2-day program of on-track role playing coupled with classroom sessions. Instructor candidates are evaluated by 3 different experienced instructors before they graduate. Students can and will do stupid things at inopportune times but we try very hard to prepare our instructors to recognize the problem student and reign them in. Most students will straighten up if the instructor pulls them into the pits and says "I'm getting out of this car unless you start listening to me". We teach our instructors to limit what gear a student can be in and to limit their straight line speed as a way to keep them calm and under control.
I am astounded that some of you are attending events where 60%-90% of the time there is an impact incident. Our chapter runs 4-6 2-day events per year and we often go an entire season without an impact. Other years we have 1-2 over the course of a season. We're not perfect. I've been an instructor in a car that a non-serious tire wall impact when I didn't recognize soon enough that a student's hands weren't straight as we were headed off. This past month we had 72 students and 42 instructors at Summit main with no problems (the racers were a different story). Our instructors are slow to sign students off to solo and for a first-time solo we require 2 instructor sign-offs. It sometimes frustrates the students but it definitely keeps cars on the asphalt. My advice is that if you are running with groups where safety is not their #1 concern, vote with your feet and your wallet and go elsewhere.
I am also opposed to mandatory safety equipment. I have a low horsepower car that I drive to and from the track. I drive the car within its limits and have a ton of fun doing it. I recognize that there is a level of risk in this approach but I am not in the financial position to have a dedicated track car. We have other club members who are in a similar position. Mandating safety equipment does not also provide for smart driving - it is the latter that needs work.
This is a conversation that should never stop. We all have a role and a responsibility to work to make this sport as safe as it reasonably can be. Any time and any where you drive a car there is risk. I was once rear-ended in the paddock by a track vehicle. However, I always feel far safer on a race track than I do driving the NJ Turnpike or the Garden State Parkway.
Cheers,
Jeff
I have been active in my local BMW chapter since 1998, track driving since 1999, involved in the driving events committee for 10+ years, the event organizer for 9 years and an instructor for 7 years. Ross Bentley has been our guest more than once. I can say that our #1 concern always has been and always will be participant safety. This commitment to safety starts with the very first communication to students, through Tech inspection procedures, the morning driver's meeting, classroom sessions and, ultimately, with the instructors. Our instructor training program is very rigorous starting with a year of pre-training then an intense 2-day program of on-track role playing coupled with classroom sessions. Instructor candidates are evaluated by 3 different experienced instructors before they graduate. Students can and will do stupid things at inopportune times but we try very hard to prepare our instructors to recognize the problem student and reign them in. Most students will straighten up if the instructor pulls them into the pits and says "I'm getting out of this car unless you start listening to me". We teach our instructors to limit what gear a student can be in and to limit their straight line speed as a way to keep them calm and under control.
I am astounded that some of you are attending events where 60%-90% of the time there is an impact incident. Our chapter runs 4-6 2-day events per year and we often go an entire season without an impact. Other years we have 1-2 over the course of a season. We're not perfect. I've been an instructor in a car that a non-serious tire wall impact when I didn't recognize soon enough that a student's hands weren't straight as we were headed off. This past month we had 72 students and 42 instructors at Summit main with no problems (the racers were a different story). Our instructors are slow to sign students off to solo and for a first-time solo we require 2 instructor sign-offs. It sometimes frustrates the students but it definitely keeps cars on the asphalt. My advice is that if you are running with groups where safety is not their #1 concern, vote with your feet and your wallet and go elsewhere.
I am also opposed to mandatory safety equipment. I have a low horsepower car that I drive to and from the track. I drive the car within its limits and have a ton of fun doing it. I recognize that there is a level of risk in this approach but I am not in the financial position to have a dedicated track car. We have other club members who are in a similar position. Mandating safety equipment does not also provide for smart driving - it is the latter that needs work.
This is a conversation that should never stop. We all have a role and a responsibility to work to make this sport as safe as it reasonably can be. Any time and any where you drive a car there is risk. I was once rear-ended in the paddock by a track vehicle. However, I always feel far safer on a race track than I do driving the NJ Turnpike or the Garden State Parkway.
Cheers,
Jeff
08-14-2015, 06:30 PM
#105
Awesome thread and it brings up a lot of the things I have been pondering lately as a DE instructor. I still need time to read through it all but DID want to comment on a few things:
The "flip side" argument here... I run my PCA Region's AX school, and have always been a big proponent of "learn to AX first". This past week I instructed @ an MVP event, and had two students: one had been AX'ing for about a year, and one who was a long time (and good/competitive) AX'er. For both of them, it was their first DE.
I immediately experienced the "flip side" argument, 2 turns in, especially with the more experienced AX'er. Sharp, jerky movements. Some sharp enough to generate a little bit of a slide, etc. HARSH on the throttle, brakes, etc. all of which really caused the car to move and pitch excessively. He was not cocky, receptive to instruction, etc., IMO confident (not OVER confident) and under control. Pitch the car and correct it, etc. But he really struggled with slowing everything down, input wise.
The other, less experienced AX'er was still abrupt but not nearly as excessive. At the end of the day, if I would've been running a stopwatch (I wasn't), I'd say he was going faster around the course than the more experienced AX'er. For sure he had more potential. He had less AX habits to unlearn, and overall was much much smoother.
So now, I'll have to think twice about promoting AX as the solid step #1.
IMO the challenge with the newer cars (2013+) is that the nannies are seamless. Your '08, when the nannies did kick in, you likely felt it/knew it. It's been my experience that with the newer cars, it starts to intervene earlier (even without lighting a lamp on the dash) and the driver (and, more relevant to THIS discussion) the *instructor*, can't tell.
I certainly think that it would be a very good idea for people to get a lot of autocross experience in their cars before heading to the big track. Heck, an autocross school requirement would be good too but I don't know if those are available in all areas.
On the flip side, I would imagine that some people with autocross experience don't realize how different it is to correct at 100 MPH versus 60 MPH. So there may be a higher level of comfort on the big track than there should be. This certainly could bite someone in the butt. Any trade off here is worth it, though!
On the flip side, I would imagine that some people with autocross experience don't realize how different it is to correct at 100 MPH versus 60 MPH. So there may be a higher level of comfort on the big track than there should be. This certainly could bite someone in the butt. Any trade off here is worth it, though!
I immediately experienced the "flip side" argument, 2 turns in, especially with the more experienced AX'er. Sharp, jerky movements. Some sharp enough to generate a little bit of a slide, etc. HARSH on the throttle, brakes, etc. all of which really caused the car to move and pitch excessively. He was not cocky, receptive to instruction, etc., IMO confident (not OVER confident) and under control. Pitch the car and correct it, etc. But he really struggled with slowing everything down, input wise.
The other, less experienced AX'er was still abrupt but not nearly as excessive. At the end of the day, if I would've been running a stopwatch (I wasn't), I'd say he was going faster around the course than the more experienced AX'er. For sure he had more potential. He had less AX habits to unlearn, and overall was much much smoother.
So now, I'll have to think twice about promoting AX as the solid step #1.
Excellent point and I must admit that I do not have a good answer. I learned on a 2008 Porsche with PSM and all the nannies and - now driving with PSM off - know what the newbies are going through learning on the newer cars. However, it's comforting (for me at least) to have that safety net as an instructor now sitting in the passenger seat.......