Doug H

Donuts and ice cream are bad for your health. Please people, stop trying save us from ourselves. Move the heck on or retire.

captdownshift

without having read the full 10 pages of commentary I have 2 points and suggestions based of the request of the original post

#1) I'm pro-speed limit, but make it a trap at the end of the straight. Very few incidents occur at speed in a straight line, or braking in a straight line. With a speed limit on the main straight you'd also eliminate one of the few legal passing locations with a point by, or at least make the action of the pass, with a point by, that much riskier.

I'd have a speed limit set at the front edge of the braking zone at the end of the straight. If you're not down to that speed in the trap zone, your next lap you're not to exceed the speed of the limit exceeded anywhere on track, you do it again, black flag. you do it after being blackflagged, you're done for the weekend and subject to further review. I'd also consider a speed trap at the entry to a high speed corner, as it's a location with the potential for the most to go wrong when physical strength of momentum exceeds that of mechanical grip.

#2) no chicanes. This is a terribly shortsighted and flawed idea. The safety systems, including, but not limited to wall placement, height and material, amount of run off and worker stations are all placed with the design of the track to be a straight. Upsetting the chassis via a chicane, opposed to enforcing a speed limit, is another opportunity for a driver to have an incident, only they would now be doing so at a location not designed which such an incident in mind. Any damage to property or person would be in part due to the parties that approved and executed that introduction of the chicane to the course as a speed control devise.

Cars come off the showroom floor with more power, more tire, more speed potential and more grip then ever before. It's important to explore changes to be enacted that make HPDEs safer for students and those who make them possible for all to take part in, the instructors.

fhp911

I can't let the remark

go unremarked.

I write as a 20+ year instructor. We are entrusted to guide a student for a day on the track and to teach him how to do this safely. If the day ends up 'unsafely' for the student, he likely will have an expensive repair to his car, he may be injured -- gravely injured -- or worse.

To dismiss these risks with the line "Donuts and ice cream are bad for your health" is to trivialize what deserves the most serious attention.

I don't intend to "move the heck on or retire." I plan to continue track driving and instructing, and I applaud everyone who has put time into composing the thoughtful messages in this thread.

ProCoach

Doug H said:

'Jeez, I was a factory driver for Porsche throughout the 80s and very early 90s until I decided law school was my best route. Now I am Ferrari guy. Seat time, having intuition and eye hand coordination is more important than a "professional" coach telling you the obvious. You either got it and have a seat feel or ain't got it. I, however, can say without any doubt whatsoever that if I was in that top .01 percent I would still be a factory driver or professional race car driver as opposed to being a lawyer, racing club et al and being a "coach" for many years.

I really teed this one up for abuse, but c'mon. People stop being an arm chair quarterback, being Mr. 20/20 hidhendsight and realize that mistakes happen. Its racing. Get the f over it and have fun. Net v. Facts. Facts v. Net. Gotta love the Net."

Yep, right.

That's why I love data...

Doug H

A lot of thinned skinned folks around here that internalize and personalize way too much. There are two options: gut the system and kill the goose that laid the golden egg; or move on.

I think HPDEs are safe and safer than many risk we take on a daily basis. Heck yes there are risk. Those risk are why adrenal junkies enjoy this type of stuff.

You are 20+ year instructor. I have raced since 1981 and instructed off and on for a lot of that time. My students used to seek me out and constantly request me when I showed up at various locations. I am all about safety first and developing fundamentals that candidly a lot of guys just never get. You are either born with the eye hand and racers edge or not.

So implement the safety equipment, speed limits and blah, blah, blah. Say bye, bye to HPDE and gues what? Wrecks will still happen.

It is not the straight line speed in long straights that tend to jack people up. For instance, how many bad instance do we hear about at Putnam on their long down hill straight versus the relatively slow speed kink at Barber? People hit some pretty decent speeds on the long straight at Putnam, but most incident occur on the mini low speed carousel right before the straight.

Doug H

Since you are mixing threads . . .

You love data. So whose fault was the RA incident in your eyes and I know you are reviewing this stuff. The guy trying to make the pass on that specific part if the track given blind spots in the F cars or the lead guy that looked over, but apparently did not have steering input to the left. If it was all about data, then why does steering input data not trump.

Data is good for figuring out best lines, double v. single apex and etc. Data does not overcome or trump innate ability.

That was some scary crap at RA that is a very one off incident. I think all involved have learned a valuable lesson and hope Jim recovers well.

ProCoach

On the former, I agree! I had a talk with Nick Longhi not long ago about the very same thing, the problem in pro racing where the engineers are telling the driver to "drive to this-looking data," which is BS. It's just another tool.

But we're talking about the 99% here, not the 1% that is Prost, Mansell, Senna, Schuey and (RIP) JW. What data does is to tell you what happened, so you can jettison the eighty percent you're doing well, find and focus on the twenty percent that will get you closer to the front.

But I digress and completely agree with the latter. Just the heightened awareness will help everyone currently in the series (and other series, hopefully) and considering the series to leave just a trace more margin...

To stay on thread, I think your observation of the Elkhart CCR incident matches my opinion that the four relatively recent DE fatalities are also "very one off." That doesn't mean we can't stop trying to do better.

LuigiVampa

Let me weigh in as someone who is "in between". I was never a Porsche factory driver but I do have a baseball hat with the Porsche logo on it, so close enough.

Not long ago I was the idiot learning to drive on the track with an instructor. I take direction very well but still I spun the car a few times. My instructors, God love them, said that I didn't scare them because I was listening to them.

Fast forward to the present and I am finishing up my rookie racing season and run in HPDE 4. I've already had conversations about doing the national PCA training for instructors - perhaps next year. I think I just need a little bit more experience and they can start me off with some new drivers in a 944NA! I'm not going to be the guy showing an advanced driver in a GT3 how to lose a few tenths each lap!

All that being said, the idea of stepping into a car with someone is a little daunting. I'm not scared, but only a fool would not consider the risks and how to limit them.

Accordingly, I would not mind having incremental speed limits for HPDE 1 and HPDE 2. If an instructor is required why not keep the speed limit down a little. As the driver progresses, and moves to a higher run group, you can remove the speed limit.

fhp911

The purpose of this thread is getting lost. It isn't about whether racers are willing to take the inherent risks of being on-track. {OF COURSE THEY ARE}

And it isn't about imposing speed limits, chicanes etc at DE events, and making them so unappealing that they go extinct.

It's the quite legitimate question of what can be APPROPRIATELY done to make DEs safer. {It isn't about requiring full roll cages for Green group drivers}

Doug H

Your kind if missing the point. If a good instructor is uncomfortable about student progression, they are already objecting to speed. But seriously, speed in straights is not the problem at any track I have ever spent time in except maybe Gateway which is now closed.

winders

Fred,

Let's not confuse "racers" and "DE participants", please.

As stated several times before, the safety issues need to be identified first. Let's not implement any "solutions" until the problems have been identified and quantified.

Scott

Doug H

Exactly. Either we have good instructors keeping people reined in or we don't.

I am a but taken back why all the fuss about the current incident. Perhaps there was a complete and utter failure in tech when checking out a 70s Datsun. Maybe there wasn't. Why was this poor guy driving solo? God forbid I get into an instructor competency issue again, but who signed this guy off and was he really ready? Would it have made a difference? Probably not, but still who signed him off?

I have seen a bunch of questionable cars sneak through tech. Have you not?

Doug H

Happy trails.

Mikelly

Its simple... As I stated earlier...Green/Blue should run a minimum UTQG tire... Advanced drivers should have appropriately mandated and inspected safety gear... This is not that hard.

And we can do all this and people will still kill themselves at racetracks in DEs. We can reduce or limit the risk. We will never remove it.

Doug H

Why should you dictate what they run??? I have had students that had natural ability that greatly exceeded a lot of the instructor pool. I think a bunch of weekend warriors are giving themselves way too much credit in potentially dangerous situations.