jeffwhite

With respect to convertibles, and since this is a thread about safety, let me relate an incident from a non-BMW event I recently attended. A "Spec Boxter" (Boxter with a full roll cage, bolted on hard top, halo race seats, full harnesses for driver and passenger) lost its brakes at the end of the main straight, and turned into turn 1 to attempt to slow down. Once the car was on the grass, the wheels dug into the dirt. The car rolled 3 times then up in the air and then climbed and came to rest on top of the Armco on the outside of the turn (this was a fairly long way). The hard top was completely torn off the car and the car itself was totaled. Fortunately, both occupants (an instructor and a professional coach) were wearing HANS devices and neither was seriously injured although both were transported to the hospital.

Seeing this incident reaffirmed that as an instructor I will never get in a convertible and as an event organizer we will maintain our policy of not allowing them.

I don't mean this to be a debate on pros and cons of convertibles. For those of you who do track open top cars, please take your safety seriously and realize that factory roll-over protection is simply not enough.

HoBoJoe

I personally wouldn't want to be on track in a convertible without a full cage and arm restraints. I decided this after seeing a video of a spec miata where the driver arms came up out of the cage during a roll.

Do you feel even with a full cage and arm restraints it's that much less safe than a coupe/sedan?

In the example you have given, neither occupant was seriously injured but were transported to the hospital. I would think that being in a coupe/sedan would have had similar results after rolling. Or was your decision based on convertibles that didn't have that level of safety equipment?

jeffwhite

Yes, I specifically mean open top cars without a similar level of safety equipment. Our chapter does allow Spec Miatas provided they have a bolted on hard top and a current SCCA logbook. We have also allowed a "Spec Z4" that had a hard top with current SCCA approval. I also agree that this accident in a sedan/coupe would likely have resulted in similar injuries. In a true open top car I believe there would have been fatalities.

Jas0nn

Worth a read ....

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a26439/why-track-days-need-speed-limits/

Undutched

My home track would be the green hell, the Nürburgring Nordschleife.

As you all know anyone is allowed on the track and there are several sections with speed limits (not just at Flugplatz since the GT-R incident).
Sadly these are mostly ignored, including by the police.
Dangerous is actually the variety of cars, bikes and skill levels at the track. There isn't a single weekend without a crash or incident.
I remember an incident a few years ago with a Golf III GTI. The guy had Altezza lights and no safety gear and the seats in a "relaxed" position. We were standing at Brünnchen and saw the car had rolled and at first I though, serves the guy right. Sadly, both driver and passenger died in that accident...
And this is in no way uncommon... I have seen dozens of cars roll without any, literally no safety gear.

I think the approach would have to have a broader more helicopter view. Different classes should be introduced say with stickers on cars to let other drivers know for example of the driver is experienced or not, or whether the car is track prepped, etc.
Further, a more detail oriented test should be introduced, like a simple multiple choice test everyone needs to pass every every time they go on a track.
In addition to that basic track behaviour should be introduced. A standardized set of rules at any track. Not just this simple guide, but a much more driver-ed focused approach.

Keith Verges - Dallas

This is a great debate, with a lot of good points and passion. For me, track driving a street car is one of life's great joys, but anyone doing it needs to accept and appreciate that it is dangerous and nothing can be done to eliminate the danger. I also have grave doubts that all manner of rules and regulation and bureaucracy will really change things.

That said, minimizing the danger is a great objective and here is how I see it.

1. Drive a slow car and don't step up until you are really skilled in it. My first race car was Spec Miata and I still love and race them. Lots and lots of folks (an you know who you are), just HAVE to drive a "fast" car that is sexier, sounds better, yada, yada, yada. If at any DE a SM passes you, consider parking your car and getting a SM. Your budget and safety will thank you.

2. Think long and hard about the track you just HAVE to drive on. Famous tracks like Road America and Road Atlanta are F'ing DANGEROUS. The Kink frightens me every time and all the walls at Atlanta! I've raced both but not sure I'd run DE there, especially in a big power street car. My home track is MotorSport Ranch. Lots of folks like to poo-poo it for not having long enough straights, but the visibility and runoff are to (not) die for. Pro tracks are almost always dangerous because they need to put spectators near the action which means walls. That said, CoTA is amazingly safe for a pro track, and I had a blast there in my 12C.

3. Give up the fascination with top speed. It's the natural, knee-jerk, button-pushing thing that those who want to go fast seem to strive for, but honestly takes the least skill and presents the most risk. I've got lots of data showing faster laps in a car with slower top speeds, especially when you throw aero into the equation.

4. Never, ever, think it can't happen to you. Nobody is that good or lucky, so be vigilant and keep learning. In aviation the good pilots all welcome instruction and learning and no reason not to adopt that philosophy on track.

Mark Dreyer

One of my benchmarks for improvement was when I no longer gave passes to Miatas at Sebring in my "double the hp Boxster S"

Mikelly

In 2009 I built a specmiata with the intent on using it to teach my kids to drive on track as an HPDE appliance. I ended up teaching myself just how badly the 600+ HP Monster Porsche turbo was masking my inabilities. I learned more in the 3 years driving that SM than I did in the 5 years I owned the Porsche. What I learned in the little Miata was transfered to everything else I've driven since. Wish we could start everyone out in a 924/Miata like platform.

stjoh

As someone who has recently graduated from being a regular DE participant to being an instructor this thread feels very relevant. This hobby shares quite a few characteristics with my day job as a Test Pilot (and former flight test safety officer) for an aircraft manufacturer. Reading this thread made me realize that I haven't seen in the DE world several of the actions taken to reduce risk that is part of the DNA in the aviation / flight test community. Some of these could possibly be applied to the DE world. Here's a sample.

Any mature flight test organization has a structured means to report a safety related event to a panel of experts for analysis of what happened and why and to propose actions to prevent it from happening again. It would appear that something like this could be set up where the regions report safety events to a national PCA safety board for review. This would allow the national board to see overall trends and allow them to impose safety measures where it gets the most bang for the buck and do it based on facts rather than opinions and guesses. It appears to me that today there are only scattered reports (especially when there's a serious event) and the expected knee-jerk reactions / comments. Safety measures should be taken based on facts, not emotions.

Apply risk mitigation / level of scrutiny based on a structured assessment of risk level / probability. Every flight test is evaluated to identify what could go wrong, how likely it is to occur and what specific actions could be taken to reduce the probability or the severity of the outcome. This methodology could be applied to a DE event. Factors driving this could be things like driver experience, car performance, track, weather... Mitigation actions could be required safety equipment, speed limits(straight, specific corners), evaluations, formal briefing of high risk areas... Again, this assessment should be based on previous experience (facts) rather than guesses again arguing for a means to collect data on safety events.

Share safety data. In the aviation industry it's the norm to share what went wrong and to openly discuss it so as to prevent it from happening again. Several industry publications publish this data. A lot of information can be found online at the NTSB website as well as other safety related websites. As for the flight test corner of the industry there is an open exchange of lessons learned related to safety even while the technical know-how is highly guarded. I have not seen this mentality in the DE world. Other than scattered reports on forums I'm not aware of any source of this kind of information.

I only posted this to provide some food for thought, I'm not claiming to have the answer. I guess my point really is that we should look at other high risk industries that have found a good way to manage risk and apply some of those practices.

ExMB

Thanx

No flame, but what you are discussing here is derived from a government mandate. It has the very potential to affect a multitude of people at the same time and some of the results can take years for implementation; other than the immediate company and their lessons learn program. Even there, in that culture you have others that may override - Gulfstream, Bombardier come to mind immediately. Bombardier now does company as well as national yearly safety briefings with guest speakers as a result.



True, a lot more information sharing and cooperation between different organizations would be very helpful.

stjoh

Yes, some of these processes are a result of government mandates but others have been initiated by the industry, like the Bombardier Safety Stand-down that you're referencing, or branch organizations like the Society of Experimental Test Pilots. Like you correctly state, these type of processes could not be put in place overnight but should perhaps be considered for the long-term health of the DE industry.

Again, I do not state that these processes should be or could be just copied and applied to the DE world. I'm just saying that the aviation industry, and several other high risk industries, have developed a structured means to manage risk that I have not seen in the DE world.

ExMB

Again, agreed. But also some of these company initiatives were implemented because of the economic impact on these companies once the news reported these highly visible occurrences.

Again, while there is lots to be learned from these high risk industries as you call them, equating them to DEs, etc, and invoking too much big brother may just be at the opposite end of the spectrum (IMHO).

In other words; when is it time to grow up and take responsibility ourselves.

Disclaimer
I've worked with and instructed pilots. IMHO they, for the most part, were some of the better students.

Runner

I'm not an instructor, but do have a few thoughts about this subject. I'm an advanced solo driver that has been doing DE in PCA for about three years. My next advancement opportunity is moving up to Red aka Instructor Run Group. I do teach the 30 minute "mandatory" morning driver's meeting before the days events get started.

!) Posting a speed limit on the straights will hurt attendance for sure. It will also take a lot of the thrill out of the DE experience.

2) Posting a speed limit will also create the dreaded "Train". Nobody likes it when caught in a long line of cars. This situation in itself is a hazard. Every car on the track is capable of hitting 90mph with ease and the result will be cars back to back to back along the straight. In our region, passing is only permitted on the straights and it is the only opportunity to get away from slower traffic or allow a faster car behind you to go around. In fact, the exit speed from a few corners is around 90mph. Posting a speed limit is a knee jerk reaction IMO.

4) Requiring some additional safety equipment? Probably not a bad idea.

Best thing a PCA region can do to minimize serious injury is to take their safety instructions to the highest level.

Also believe that the instructor has a responsibility to keep the conditions safe as possible.

BTW - a big shout to all the instructors! THANK YOU! Maybe one day (soon) I will join you.

fhp911

I have a viewpoint on one safety element which is contrary to most of the sentiments expressed here:

I feel that the electronic safety controls (nannies) should be left ON in the lower run groups. They will prevent crashes. Yes, the driver won't be learning the car control to save the situation, but he won't be crashing. Today's cars are so fast that they overwhelm any instructor's ability to give verbal safety cues to the novice driver in time to avoid an accident.

Then -- crash having been averted -- the instructor can explain to the driver what he should have done differently, and the learning can proceed.

As instructors we can teach and explain before we get into the car and while we're underway. But once we're on track a crash can occur in an instant -- we can't intervene then. The nannies can help avoid the crash.

As the driver matures in experience, then the nannies can be more safely turned off.

ProCoach

Both really good posts...

I've been doing this for over thirty years, and speed limits are not the answer...

Reaffirming the proper culture and existing best practice for safety and advancement is.