ShakeNBake

We have the same challenge in our PCA chapter. In my heart, I feel like we are the most conservative and safest compared to the other club options in the area - but recently we've made some dumb decisions on promotions - based on speed. There are cars showing up that literally drive themselves at green and blue speeds, and to manage over-aggression and student frustration with not being able to drive the car to their god born abilities (tongue in cheek), we have promoted several people to into higher, faster run groups. On one dimension it seems logical, get the faster car out of the slower run groups - but that has never led to good things for the safety or student's learning long term.

With power comes great responsibility I guess.

Tim Webb

The arrogance that you exhbit is quite telling. You have just decided for all those out there that a few thousand doesn't make any difference.

jscott82

You are right... I was a little off.. But my point is still valid at 150+ which is easily achiveable ( I checked this time)

docwyte

Tim, no, we as instructors can't always control the situation. We're not driving. We can make suggestions and inputs, which are hopefully followed at the proper times.

To say we're in control is a complete fallacy...

Jas0nn

Organizations do this all the time. TT has certain rules. Club Racing requirements are even more stringent. Pro level Racing adds on their own. (Some states even impose their own rules; NJ and full-face helmets, for example). Why are those okay, but a very reasonable requirement for advanced HPDE is not?

Its not arrogance; its a recognition that the stakes are quite serious. This is a hobby. Its not a right or some kind of mandate. "If you want to participate, these are the rules."

BUT you complete ignore the most important part of all of this: what's the real impact? Saying that it will "kill HPDE" is absurd. I would wager that MOST advanced drivers already meet these requirements. So where's the issue?

CCA

I think not allowing R-comps until the driver is Advanced Solo or Instructor would be reasonable. Disallowing then in the new/intermediate Solo run group, may help that group to mature a little more as drivers. That said, many Summer/Extreme Performance Summer tires are very close to R-comp capabilities. How would you police for and deal with those?

winders

I don't like how you look at this...at all.

If you can't control the speed of your driver, get him off the track for a talk or get him to another instructor that can control him. If no one can control him, boot him!

LuigiVampa

Arrogance? Please.

To ignore this problem is to stick your head in the sand.

I agree with Jas0n that once you become an advanced solo driver you should have to invest in some safety equipment in order to be promoted.

It would be unrealistic to mandate expensive safety gear for green drivers. But in the beginning stages it should be up to the instructor to limit speeds. Not an easy task, grant you. But if people don't comply the results would be disastrous.

Lastly, personal responsibility and waivers have nothing to do with this article. You think when someone dies at a DE their spouse will say "he/she died doing something he/she loved" and leave it at that? All you need is a law suit and the insurance companies will stop writing coverage. At that point all these rules that we "arrogantly" are in favor of will be mandated.

hf1

So no need to mandate anything for them then.

Has it been established that the frequency of DE injuries and deaths are actually a problem (more frequent than normally expected from an endeavor riskier than brushing teeth)? What would be the standard for "successfully solving" this problem with any of the proposed "measures"? 20% reduction? Complete elimination? How many highway deaths could have been prevented if every car had full race safety gear in them? Now there's an idea...

The newer cars are more powerful but they also come with more safety features (traction control, crumple zones, airbags, etc.).

I'm not an instructor but I would leave any student's car in which I was unable to establish a hierarchy of power with me at the top. When people talk about "taking control" they don't mean literally taking over the steering wheel and the pedals in a moment of crisis. They mean controlling the student's actions and intentions so that the probability of a crisis is minimized.

Just my $0.02

TXE36

A few thousand dollars? Oh, please.

By the time someone is running in the advanced groups, they are spending enough on tires that basic safety equipment falls in to the financial units of a set or two of tires. I understand the money argument as being frugal is what enables me to afford what I do, but it just doesn't fly here.

There is a local E46 M3 around here that has aero, big brakes, power mods, mostly stripped interior, and stock seats/belts. The cost of a bolt in roll bar, proper seats, harness, and hans isn't much compared with that other stuff and doable for less than $3K if one works at it.



-Mike

Tim Webb

+1 hf1

+1 winders

Perhaps a little more focus needs to be placed on who becomes instructors. There are some good ones out there and then there are the rest. If you spend the requisite number of days at the track you get to be an instructor. Not everyone should be an instructor. Not only do you need the skill but you need to be able to verbalize appropriately, and you must be able to deal with the personalities that can get you into trouble. If that means pulling a ticket, the instructor needs to have the ***** to do so.

Accidents happen. Deal with it. The terrible event at RA was wrong place, wrong time. Truely sad. On the whole, HPDE's are run safely every weekend. They have a been a boone to the tracks. Without HPDE I would wager fewer tracks would still be operating. I prefer to see the tracks survive so that all can enjoy motorsports.

JasOnn,

HPDE is not racing. The goal is to help people enjoy their cars. Perhaps if they have the desire and the funds to move to the next level then great. Putting additional requirements on someone who may go to the track every once in a while just reduces the number of participants.

Luigi,

No one is sticking their head in the sand. But if I want to stick my head in the sand I bloody well will unless I need approval to do so.

fatbillybob

Those who feel strongly, need to go back to your clubs where you have friends and change the minds of those you track with. The cream always rises to the top. If a new HPDE format proves its worth others will copy.

While I respect RB, starting a national conversation is fine but having no data, no testing, plan just degenerates into dueling commentary.

winders

This discussion is all well and good. But, we are all shooting from the hip here. Before we can solve the problem, we need to identify what is actually causing it. To do that, we need to look at incidents that did or could have resulted in injuries and determine the root cause. Once we have that data, we can see what the actual trends are and work from there.

What percentage of incidents occur with an instructor in the car? What kind of cars are involved in these incidents? How many of these incidents happen on or right after a straightaway? What is the experience level of the drivers involved?

Those are just a few of the questions that I would want to know the answers to before I recommend far sweeping changes to the current system.

Tim Webb

+1 Winders and fatbillybob

TXE36

So perhaps the first change is sharing of data, because the answers to even those general questions can be hard to come by as those involved don't talk about it for liability and other reasons.

I'd like to know why the incident occurred as well as the effectiveness of the safety equipment used.

-Mike