Veloce Raptor

Heck, even Michael Schumacker had a driving coach when he was winning 7 world championships!

kurt M

We do the same in my area. in this case it is White which is not an instructors run group. Some times we invade the White grid up and right seat in mass.
Irfan sounded like he wanted to have some form of formal ride along requirement for Red and Black which is our high hour drivers and instructors groups. As is right now we do ride with each other and often too. Unlike taking a student out in the lower groups we don't have to ask the CI prior to we simply plan it ourselves and go out in red or black. I think I learn something every time I take a fellow instructor out and vice versa when in the right seat. (hell, I learn from the right seat of students cars too)

KevinGross

I've been involved in PCA DE for 26 years, have instructed PCA and BMWCCA for, um, I think almost twenty of them, and am one of the PCA nationally approved instructors. My two cents:

- Do you believe that DEs you participate in are safe enough? Yes, they are safe, and I think we are exposed to more risk and danger driving to and from the track than on the tracks.

- Have you found DE safety to be staying the same, improving, or getting worse over the years? The safety and quality on instruction have improved dramatically over the years I've been involved, and the number of incidents has dropped dramatically.

- Is the incident rate higher in any particular run group(s)? The frequency of incidents is low enough nowadays that I am tempted to say there's not enough data to say. Novices tend to make a lot of novice mistakes which sometimes lead to "offs" and occasionally to bent metal. Advanced drivers and instructors make fewer mistakes, but when they do, they are closer to the edges (track, adhesion, each other) and the consequences can be greater.

- What have you found to be the key contributors to safety incidents? I don't have a very satisfying answers to this, I'm afraid. People are testing their limits, mistakes happen because we are not perfect, and I think that's really at the heart of it. I don't see a significant number of incidents in DE that I would call "mechanicals," that is the equipment is at fault.

- What can/should be done to most effectively improve safety, without overly impeding fun, learning, and participation in DEs? I think PCA and BMWCCA are in a good place at present and don't feel there is a strong need for big changes. The programs are a real credit to the people who work so hard to organize and run them.

Regarding safety aids like traction control, this is a really complex topic. I was asked to get in car with a white (intermediate) student at a Watkins Glen event a few years ago. He had a new 997 Turbo, and I remembered he had been driving a Cayenne the previous year. After one lap with him, I brought him into the pits for a talk: the gist of which was that he had f'ed up every corner royally -- and I mean every corner -- and but for the driver aids on his car, we would both be dead or seriously injured. He was that bad, the car was that good. So he was in the wrong group, somehow had slipped through the process, our bad. But the great unanswered question for me was: how was this guy ever going to learn if PASM etc keeps saving him, giving him the illusion of competence?

So drivers make mistakes, instructors make mistakes (promoting that guy), track personnel make mistakes -- that's reality. I still am a lot more attentive to and nervous about the MPV next to me on the highway going home than the Porsche passing me on the track.

Kevin
Catellus Engineering

Gary R.

This is the biggest issue I see in PCA DE, drivers being advanced because the car they drive is fast and they are the "fastest" in their group. BIG mistake, feeds their egos, and is IMO the biggest safety concern out there right now. The new cars, whether at GT3, Turbo, or whatever are capable of great speed and hide SO many mistakes it's crazy.

TREMPER

I could not have expressed any better myself Kevin..Thank you
As far as turn signal for passing..How can you be sure the signal indicator was not accidently activated upon exiting a turn..Hand signals done proper are very definitive and not easily mistaken for some thing else.
Pete

Matt Romanowski

Edit: This isn't directed at Gary, but rather the conversation and ideas that he wrote.

I think this raises some really important questions. I think the same quotes have been said since the first race car about all succeeding cars. What you can get away with in a 991 vs. 996. Then take those cars vs a 993? Vs. a Carrera? Vs. a 901? Vs. a swing axle 356? This also applies to all cars from other brands and series as well.

As technology and designs have changed, the required driving skills have changed. I think each generation has gotten easier to drive. And faster. Way faster today with a GT3 or Turbo than an SC, 944, or my original 914 1.7 lapping WG at 3:30!

So, just because the PSM comes on once, is that a sign the student is no good or is that equivalent to an older car getting sideways? Is a student in a new car using the ABS considered the same as an older car locking a wheel? What about someone using the ABS when they learn to trail brake? Is that smart learning or the car driving for them?

Now just like before the aids in the car, there are drivers who are below the hairy edge all the time, some who are on it, and some who exceed it by large margins (with the resulting damages). I think the basics still apply - you need to teach the driver the basic ideas of what makes a good driver, but then it has to be adapted to their car some. A small lift to throttle steer in a 991 would send a short wheel base 901 into the weeds!

Gary R.

Thanks for not directing that at me Matt.
To be clear, it's not the newer cars speed/power/suspension that causes my concern, it's the computer (2005 and up?) driving the car in the newest iterations. My last venture in a 2012 Turbo S was with a guy who wanted to be promoted to solo (he wasn't). We went into Big Bend too fast and off line, the rear end came out, and the car stopped the spin midway through and he drove on. I would have been in the woods. His solution was to have a new GT3 on order... that should do it.

Matt Romanowski

Those are the same folks who would have crashed an earlier car if given the chance. I think it's really hard on the instructor, but that is when we have to be more in tune with the car, driver, and on top of our game to catch them before it progresses too far.

TXE36

Off topic, but a recent topic, the "DE Wave". I waved out the driver's window last weekend and the car that was behind me that also passed the car I waved at thought I waved him by . From now on my waves will be inside the car and perhaps not when they can possibly be misconstrued.

The turn signal also does not really say how many passes the lead car is authorizing. The arm out the window is very definitive in this respect.

-Mike

Veloce Raptor

Agree 1000%.

Back on topic regarding electronic driver aids: I am thankful that when I do instruct in DE's, I am only in the car with the most advanced drivers as well as other instructors. The vast majority of these folks have turned off everything that can be turned off in dry weather. In wet weather, I make sure everything is on...

That said, whenever these electronic aids do intervene, I use this as a Teaching Moment. This even goes for ABS (in the dry).

LuigiVampa

Last season I got pictures on my phone of two separate GT3s that went into the wall hard. I only saw the aftermath, and my data sample is small, but I think being able to drive really really fast, when you are really really inexperienced, is a problem. But what do I know? I drive a 951 so maybe I am just jealous that I have to do all the driving myself.

Tedster

What can/should be done to most effectively improve safety, without overly impeding fun, learning, and participation in DEs?
I'm a PCA nationally certified driver and I think overall DEs are very safe. Most problems seem to be traceable to a few people. One guy, actually an experienced and fast driver has totaled three cars, 2 were GT3s. He drives fast but takes unnecessary risks and as long as he can afford a new car the club keeps letting him back with no additional scrutiny.

I think that after a black flag or other serious problem such as a crash, close call due to driver error, 4 wheels off, flag violation, etc. there needs to be a record kept by the club. I have seen some repeat offenders and they seem to cause most of the problems. Every track day they start with a clean slate and that is not fair to the other drivers. Also, repeat offenders should have to get some additional training or perhaps put in writing a corrective action plan. If they are not interested in these then they are not safe enough to share a track in driver's education.

TXE36

Perhaps someone with better knowledge in the Texas PCA regions can comment, but I'm pretty sure there is a record of *everything* that happens at a PCA HPDE at TWS. The woman running control up in the tower sees almost everything and the blind spots I'm sure are ratted out by the corner workers (and properly so). A 4 wheel off or spin of any kind is a mandatory stop in black flag and you had better not make them black flag you. What this means is if you spin or go off you are *expected* to stop in the hot pits without making the corner workers actually dig out the black flag. Screw that up and miss the black flag and it's no fun for you.

IMO, the most dangerous thing I do on a PCA track weekend is drive to and back from the track. Those civilians on public roads are nuts!

WRT the electronic nannies, as somebody who works with embedded processors and firmware, there is no way I would want to trust my life to that stuff. Way to easy for a "glitch" to get way to real. Think of it another way, do you really think a trapeze or high wire artist is performing well if they use the net?

-Mike

Tedster

TXE, I am thinking about the few people who seem to spin or do something dumb at almost every DE they participate in. Re-educate or eliminate them and that will improve safety for everyone else without having to do much more.

Manifold

Another thing to consider regarding fast modern cars: I've heard of organizations doing promotions specific to a given car, so if the driver changes cars another checkout ride is needed.

I also know of an organization that makes promotions specific to each track, so a driver can be in different run groups at different tracks with the same organization.

I'm not criticizing or endorsing these practices, just putting it out there.