SoClose

For practical purposes, I'm calling BS on these numbers. I can only imagine that this can be achieved, but for Club Racing? Where are these cars?
We do fairly well in our class with 105 hp at the crank. We've used most of the high end products that are available, including what's been used in Geoff's engine. I can't express strongly enough how expensive this stuff is, and how long this stuff doesn't last. One thinks that the parts are expensive- until the development begins- then take out another mortgage on the house. There are some 'packages' that are out there, which sounds like a great plan, until you are building and realize that everything doesn't match up, and that the 'package' doesn't include all of the parts. Geoff is a wizzard, and clearly knows his stuff- and does most if not all of the work himself.
Musante got it right- but where is that car now? In 3R, Chris is gone, but the other front running cars- Pfeffer, Polk, Gamroth, us-all run pretty close.
The rule, as it stands at 110 hp/l is still a bit of a pipe dream.

KaiB

SoClose, with you 100%. The price of a maxed engine is astronomical and hours are severely limited.

We have been discussing alternatives for mine (currently a bit less than 100hp/L), but....

At 309 very torquey hp to the wheels, with the baby clutch and with my suspension and tranny I'm as happy as can be in GT4 and few cars there can run away. My engine will last quite some time.

(What engine is Polk running?)

SoClose

Polk has a 3.8. Light car, excellent driver.
Wyman will get that KMS-RSR up to speed, and he's thinking about some paddle $$hifters or other crazy stuff. All of us around the same hp/l, except Musante, who owns his own shop.
Even when Cervelli was crushing it in his 993 RSR, that was still less than 100hp/l.

SoClose

While I'm on a soap box, I think it is time for the R/S distinction to end.
There is a significant advantage over the first two laps for a R/A 6, and that lost time may not be gained by the end of a 25 minute race. With a GT car that is not 'overdriven', one can keep those tires at the proper temperature and not have their lap times fall off.
It's a GT class, and this should be the driver's option, like fuel injection or carbs.

NaroEscape

^^ +1000
Walt said that the empirical evidence does not support that slicks hold an advantage over R/A 6 tires.

As SoClose said, this is GT class, just about everything is free within displacement/weight factor, tires should be no different.

forklift

412 rwhp thread here: https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...ngine-2-a.html

KaiB

+ 964, with the added advantage of increasing "class" sizes.

flatsics

How can you call BS on the numbers?
Geoff has all his threads and fully documented his engine build on Rennlist.
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...eferrerid=4234

GT rules for the engine are based on what is achievable. 110 hp/l is very achievable with an air cooled Porsche race engine.
Affordable,reliable, and long lasting is a different discussion.
110 hp/l does not have to be a 30 hr motor.

Midwest Eurosport has had 2.8l engines making over 300hp for years. Here is an example using carbs. They use Motec on many of their engines.

From PMO website:

320 HP out of a 2.8 - most horsepower we’ve seen on a carbureted 2.8 engine on our dyno!
Midwest Eurosport, Bensenville, IL, June 2002

http://midwesteurosport.com/index.ph...=83&Itemid=140

From PMO website:
The 3.8s we have been building which have the 50 mm PMOs put out around 425 hp with 325 lbs torque at 7200 rpm and the cars are still very drivable.
Mike, J.B. Racing, Tavares, FL, October 2012

http://www.jbracing.com/

Your PMO carbs run smooth as silk. Can’t tell the difference from a good fuel injected motor. You made it easy for us. On a 3.8 with 50mm PMO carbs, we got 380 horsepower at the wheels.
Automobile Associates of Canton, Canton, CT, January 2009

Our 3.4 with the 50 PMO's makes 350 HP at the rear wheels! Easily beats out cars with their $20,000 injection systems. At the 2004 PCA race at Road Atlanta we also beat factory 3.8 RSR race cars with our 3.4. With the PMO 46s on our 2 litre cars we get more power and much better drivability than the Weber 46s.
Scott at Auto Associates, Canton, CT, April 2004


http://automobileassociates.com/

328 horsepower out of a 2.5 liter! You'd swear it is electronic fuel injection, it's so smooth. We install a lot of EFI systems, but this motor is optimized. I recommend your carburetors to everyone. The customer wouldn't give up those carburetors for anything.
Jarvis Tech, Ft. Lauderdale, FL, September, 2003


If this engine is not over 110 hp/l...somebody needs to get their money back
https://crawford993.shutterfly.com/

Engine (>$60,000)

· Build complete date: 5/28/13
· Total hours on engine: 4 (2 sprint races)
· 996 GT3 cup crankshaft and oil pump
· 3.8 L Dawe race engine (details available on request)
· Xtreme cylinder heads
· Tilton clutch/flywheel
· Motec M48 engine management (gamroth ECU connector)
· Rothsport (Jeff Gamroth) custom GT3 intake and exhaust systems
· 962 pulley and belt system

SoClose

Doug, for PRACTICAL purposes I'm calling BS on these 3.8/3.9 motors. I belive it is easier and longer lasting to do with a smaller displacement.
At 110 hp/l it is a hand grenade. If not, we would all be running them.

flatsics

I think that's the tough part about it. The "practical" part.

Maybe what should be discussed is hp/l vs. displacement.

What I was replying to, was the idea that 110 hp/l for an air cooled Porsche is some crazy number that is not achievable.

The problem with GT class..unless there is a Dyno or Data or something to monitor engines performance, how do you regulate max HP?

Another Example:

http://www.jbracing.com/forsale.php

Porsche Full Race Motor - 3.0L
Built from the Ground UP by JB Racing
COMPLETE AS PICTURED - DYNO TIME ONLY!
357 hp @ 7900 rpm / 260 FT. LBS.TORQUE @ 6200 RPM

• OEM Crank with JBR Oiling System Mods
• Extensive Case Modifications
• ARP Cylinder Head Studs
• GT3-R Oil Pump
• JBR Straight Cut Auxiliary Shaft Gears
• Carrillo Rods
• JE Pistons
• JBR Billet Aluminum Fin/Iron Sleeve Cylinders
• JBR Full Race Cylinder Heads on OEM Castings
• Over-sized Stainless Steel Intake and Exhaust Valves

• Elgin Cams
• JBR Valve Train
• 50mm PMO Carburetors and Intake Manifolds
• ITG Air Filters w/ JBR Base Plates
• 6 into 2 into 1 *** Coated Exhaust System
• JBR Carbon Shroud and Parts
• JBR 12-Pin Distributor w/ 8mm Spark Plug Wires
• MSD 6AL Ignition Boxes (2) with MSD Coils
• And much, much more!

KaiB

I, for one, am happy with the GT regs as written.

No need to regulate horsepower, run what you brung, and as Sclose mentions, there really is a practical limit where a majority of the front running cars seem to equalize. As usual in Club Racing it turns out it's more about the driver than the extra 20 hp/L.

The Cup cars prove this absolutely.

flatsics

WERD!

Nader Fotouhi

MoD,

There is another fast guy in Potomac Region driving a RSA that I think runs RS suspension.

Doug and Jim,

I was t the NJMP race and there were 3 G class Boxter S there, so hopefully, G-class starts to have more cars. I also learned that I need over 200lbs of ballast in my 95 993 to make weight after an endure, which is just unsafe.

I have full glass, windows and window motors, and the spare tire in the car, and need about 120 lbs of ballast to make weight after a 30 minute sprint starting with a full tank of gas and full kool suit cooler which is still unbelievable.

MoD

Nader,

I feel terrible for 993 owners. My father has a 993 that is a DE car but really well set up, Motons and all the normal gofast parts and even with considerable seat time in the car I am 2 seconds off both 964s I have driven at many of the local tracks. I do believe a little weight reduction for you guys would be fair. Maybe 100lbs. The gearing in the 993s is pretty bad and at the weight you guys run its hard to keep up with us 964 guys.

good hands

I think this is the scenario everyone was talking about with passenger seats. Car on fire, stuck on it's left side, Need to get out. Why have any impairment when trying to escape ?

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/08/29...nia-dirt-track