rmag

One of my biggest gripes is before I built my current car 2 years ago, before spending $10k on changing the MC, Booster, Uprights, Calipers, Rotors, etc to meet the specification of a PCCB car exactly, we called chief scrutineer to verify it was legit. We were told YES. Even thought we knew of other cars doing it, we verified. Period. PCCB have been around for 10 years. Now all of a sudden they change the rules with no grandfathering, and I have to spend $$$$ to revert back, plus lose the inital $10k cost

Aerokit wing I only care about because it looked cool. Now cars going to look ridiculous with only 1/2 taco wing

I still dont get why GT3s get a free pass on all this. If I decided to run in J with an 09 997, I can't run it with the factory options (not modifications), which would give it similar size brakes and aero as other cars in my class (GT3s). Solely because Porsche made them an option vs standard. If rules are to applied, do it consistently.

flatsics

Too me, you shouldn't change your car right away.

I would run in I prepared for now,and wait and see how this all plays out. I think you have a valid point about the wings for the GT3's. Really, the main problem is how much the newer cars have changed/are changing. The old ways of classing are not working as well for the newer Porsche models.

It seems to me there is going to be a fair bit of backlash about these rule changes. They may end up being modified.

good hands

Ryan your number does not include the initial investment for the brakes that were legal when you built the car. This decision is really costing you 20,000 dollars when you think about it. Just not sure the committee should have the ability to change the rules and cost a racer that kind of money after they have built a legal car. Yes you've won races but you do not have track records at any track except Summit point which is your home track. Where are these changes justified ? Still not getting it.

rmag

How is the brake thing different than the chip thing...OBD1 cars now get the free "prepared change" of chipping, while OBD2 dont. If I was running in G in a 96+ 993 or a cayman I dont get to chip, yet all you 964 guys do.

flatsics

The chip rule came about because there was not a practical way to police it, and the stock chips are not available.



96 993 has:

vario ram

mass air flow sensor

LSA multilink rear suspension

Available 4 way ABS with ABD option

Bigger brakes

Wider track

and just lost 120 lbs...

rmag

Yes, but what does that have to do with free chipping? Cars were classified together prior to rule.

And 993s losing 120lb only to be able to stay with you underweight classified 964s

flatsics

I really don't see what is sooo funny. How many races did you run with your 993 to come to the conclusion that it's not competitive?

rmag

How many races? None. Took 2 laps I completely agree with the 120lb loss. I was actually jibing you about the weight classification of the 964 and how it was derived.

MSR Racer

I think Cory summarized the conundrum in stock classes well. Newer cars with comparable weight:hp ratio have better brakes, better suspension and aero package, and are easier to drive and are lighter.

In any given stock class, there is a preferred car. Eg in my class J, 996 GT3 is the way to go. It's a sanitized cup with a Metzger motor. Everything else is playing catch-up until a newer platform with better technology arrives. Ideally, we should pick a class, and then buy the best suited race car for that particular class. But most of us buy or build a RACECAR and then look to see where it fits. And then we complain about everything! I am in that camp myself.

Nader Fotouhi

Yes I do, apparently everyone except me knows how crappy 993 is, so I should have proposed 200lbs.

coryf

The issue I believe is that the 993's make the power they are supposed to. The 964 has basically the same engine as an early 993. The primary difference is the exhaust configuration. You replace the stock exhaust with a legal set of headers and it makes the same or better power than an early 993. Race exhaust doesn't make the same difference on a 993. 120 pounds should make the 993 a lot more competitive and maybe the best car to have in G. The problem is how valuable the air cooled cars are becoming. Who wants to hack one up to turn it into a race car when they are worth so much and likely are going up in value.

Nader Fotouhi

I was just giving Doug and my buddy Forklift grief with the 200Lb comment. 964s making same power as early 993 with proper header was part of the argument for proposing the weight reduction. 993 Variorum higher power also comes with additional weight penalty. If I were to run 993 in H prepared, I would look into X51 package. 993 has always been the subject of conversation of why there are not more in CR. I think the price of these cars have always been an issue. AFAIK, there are only a handful of 993s in (including ours) running in PCA. All were converted before the prices started going through the roof.

For 993 to be a fast car requires getting the rear suspension set up correct which is not something that everyone can do. AFA best car in G, may be if you drive it. At the end, this old fat guy just wants to have fun running what he's brung.

forklift

lol, I've been reading but have managed to stay out of this one so far. We'll see what happens next year w/ 993s.

Agree that even w/ similar p/w the new cars have advantages from suspensions to gearing/gearboxes (pdk which allows not only faster shifts but LFB every corner or even 6 speeds like 993s ) and esp aero which is where the air cooled 911-993 get crushed as they are rolling brick walls....and bigger brakes, wider wheels, longer wheelbases, electronics, modern abs etc, etc, etc, etc. Obviously this will be a bigger issue as time goes by. I don't know what the answer is and agree if anything we need fewer classes, not more classes but if the divide in performance at the same p/w becomes too great something will need to be done (weight is usually the easiest).

flatsics

I'm good with the weight change if it brings a few more 993's into G class.

I just don't understand why the consensus is that the 993 can't be competitive.

The most common complaint is the gearing vs. the 964.
1st through 4th is damn near identical on both cars, 5th gear looks like a slight advantage vs. the 964.

RSA uses G50/05 and USA 993 G50/20

993 tire size used in the chart are slightly shorter vs. 964.

Soooo....

993 has

Same HP vs 964

LSA multilink rear suspension

Available 4 way ABS with ABD option

Bigger brakes

Wider track

and just lost 120 lbs

Running out of excuses

rmag

'96-98 993 use OBD2, so still at disadvantage because no chip