BostonDMD

The "mass" of the G drivers are already struggling without the 200 lbs penalty.....

paradisenb

What gets me is the perpetual pontification about safety, yet the passenger seat must remain in the spirit of Stock Class racing. I guess I should have bought one of the Stock street cars that came with a full cage and a forever young (less than 6 years) seat.

Shall we talk about the wind wing? No way in hell keeping that thing installed aids in safety. Al contraire.

And the sliders.....WTF? Escaping from a halo seat equipped early 911 without sliders is....well...impossible on the driver's side and, of course, the passenger seat complicates egress on the that side.

But...But... we keep the SPIRIT in tact.

Mahler9th

The PMNA/Cup Car sliders seem to be identical to those used in 996 and Boxster cars. One would have to check part numbers to be sure. And I imagine one would want any rule to be very specific and consider all PAG/PMNA parts including those in more recent 997 and 991 factory race cars.

I changed the slider in my 1975 911 race car (GT2) class) from a Recaro racing part to a PAG 996 slider last summer. It was a bit of a project and added a bit of weight. I know of no "test data" or results in the public domain that have shown the PAG 996/Boxster sliders to be safe or safer than the Recaro racing slider. But I made a judgement based on physical examination and discussion with some local experts/professionals that a change made sense for my set up in my car (which has a seat back brace).

JWE has been using these sliders in quite a few 911 cars and at least two I know of have been in accidents. They have access and exposure to the latest factory parts (both PAG and PMNA) and to the former chief engineer of a highly successful RSR-running team, who also races an earlier 911. Jerry Woods has developed a standardized way of mounting these sliders that involves some welding. There are some standardized parts they use. It seems to emulate what PAG do with the slider in the race cars they build. I did not have JWE install my sliders but used a similar system. I did buy their uprights which are very similar to what PAG uses, at least in appearance, and they were priced favorably compared to branded racing seat uprights from companies like Sparco and Recaro.

Mahler9th

A few years ago folks may remember PCA changed rules regarding suits, gloves and shoes, et cetera. One of the results was that you could not race in an FIA 86 rated suit, even if it was a NOS Formula 1-level Sparco 3-layer. But you could race in a single layer SFI suit from 1985 with appropriate nomex underwear. To me, this made no sense. I did not comment during the open discussion period because I was not racing with PCA. I only cared when I decided to run in the RR IV Club race. And that was too late. I was able to run in the race with my FIA 1986 suit because it also had the timeless SFI certification (though it wasn't badged as such).

My point is that folks should actively discuss this stuff during the commentary period and go through the appropriate channels. I am sure the folks at PCA Club racing will review all input as they do every year. But folks need to speak up and get their fellow racers to speak up as well.

Astroman

Please post some pictures if you can. I'm curious what all this looks like.

flatsics

no kidding

Mahler9th

I will try to get and post some pictures.

JWE has done some pretty amazing things with standard approaches during the past few years.

For the seat slider mounting, they have these machined pieces that get welded to the floor. They have a jig and a practiced method of welding these pieces in with reinforcement in appropriate places. Clever and studied, but not over the top. Each of these four pieces has a threaded hole in the center to accept the bolts for the sliders. Pretty much what you would do if your 1975 911 used the same sliders and you designed the set up for street car production.

Some (all?) Cups, have uprights to attach the seat to the sliders that come in four pieces. This is required due to the the design of the sliders. When I looked at rigging my car for the sliders, I realized that I would have to cut up the aluminum Recaro uprights to get them to work with the sliders. The Cup car/JWE solution is what I would have wound up with via fabrication, and all I had to do was buy them from JWE.

And buy the way, the sliders cost a whopping $100. Readily available.

Extremely positive locking parts compared to racing Sparco and Recaro pieces I have previously used.

mglobe

They Cup sliders are not the same as the 996 sliders. They are a great looking piece of kit, but when we looked at them, they would have required some modifications to the car that we didn't want to do. My recollection is that the cup sliders have locking pins that extend downward below the sliders themselves. I think you can make them work on the existing seat mounts, but if like many folks you want (or need) to lower your seat, you've got some work to do to make the sliders work in your car.

Gary R.

Next time any of you are in your car with stock high-back passenger seats, look in your mirror and tell me if you could get a better rear and right rear quarter view without it being there. Also, if you were to remove it would you mount a mini-fridge or something else in it's place and trip over it on the way out anyway? Does anyone think the seat helps you get out in a hurry? I ask because it's not even up for consideration for a rules change, has no chance of happening under current administration, so get used to it.... and anything else the wise men come up with.

Mahler9th

For clarity...

I have not done a part number comparison between PAG/PMNA Cup parts and the street car parts. The sliders I have are from a 996 or Boxster, and they are as you describe with the pins. I don't know if anyone has compared the parts or the part numbers in great detail. My visual comparison suggests that there are of identical or nearly identical design and construction.

The folks at JWE have access to a variety of Cups, including a '12 that has run in IMSA and at least one car that had run at Daytona. ANd as I mentioned, they have access to the ex eng chief from FLM. So they have an ability to compare/contrast. Not sure if they have done so, but they did recommend used 996 sliders to me.

These sliders are not flat on the bottom, and that fact is taken into account in their parts and methods for mounting.

MoD

What this man said! Ive only recently acquired a G class car, but have co-driven a few times in G, and the fast guys in G usually outperform most of H in their G cars. I believe the biggest downfall of the 964s are the small brakes. I think most guys who go to H simply go there because they add the big brakes to their car and end up in H. An easier fix would be to allow the 964 RSAs to have the big brake upgrade done in G. This would move a lot of the H 964s back into G. To make it fair for the 993 guys, allow them to shed 100lbs of weight.

I think this would be more sound, it would fill G class back up with 964s, and allow H to grow with Caymans, 996s, and 997 C2s.

I for one already think the tiny brakes on my car are too small for 2910lbs, forcing me to go up another 200lbs would really take the fun out of being in the 964.

KaiB

Walt's note mentions RWHP, this is why I brought it up.

Geoff's engine is a 3.8 - not way over 110hp/L, but almost right at it.

Yep we both know a shop which could get the mostest, but....we'll be shooting for around 390....

forklift

I don't think the 200 lb add will pass. If it does I might be going back to DEs.

Interesting thought about the big brakes (esp since I still have my BBK in the garage) but I don't think that would work because all others in G besides 993s won't be happy, even though they are rare from what I see (boxsters and caymans etc). When I went back down to G I didn't miss the 3.8 wing but I do miss the BBK and the wider wheels even more. I was surprised how much 1" difference makes in the tire width with the same tire. Also the drivers w/ a R&P will have to pay a lot to get that reversed. As I wrote earlier some classes have "ringers" and errr, not ringers. and the H RSA is the latter. When someone fast develops a 2013 boxster that will be the car in G. Technology marches on......

I also wrote in a request to make power steering legal in stock RSAs but that wasn't included in the comments. I'm beat to hell after a weekend and this would help I think. The C2s can run at RSA weight w/ power steering so I think RSAs should be able to run power steering but no dice I guess.

Somedays I wish I had the $ to say the hell w/ stock and go GT and forget about all this stuff. Maybe when I have to rebuild my motor I will (still Stuttgart stock).

forklift

I don't have first hand experience with this but have thought this is the case....that adjustable shocks aren't much faster than well valved Bilstiens etc., if a all. Sometimes I think I'd be better off selling my JRZs and buy some Bilstiens so I don't have to F w/ my shocks all weekend and can focus on my driving.

John Milne

I had proposed the removal of the passenger seat and wondered why it was not put up for comment. I emailed Walt Fricke and he provided a very interesting answer. If you have a question about this topic, I suggest you correspond with Walt.

Walt has provided his position on this matter to at least one other racer, so hopefully he will share with you.

Just for the record, I disagree with most of what Walt said in his email.

John