Circuit Motorsports

You do understand this mentality is not that of racing. Racing is about coexisting on track (side by side if needed) and seeing who is better at getting to teh finish line. Not about using some BS rule of who 'owns' the corner. Give racing room (not 3/4 of a car width, the whole car + 1 inch). Race. don't use some glorified DE passing rule.

Plavan

That video changes everything for me. Since we are all Armchair Quartbacking, here is my take.
If I was in the white car, I would of done the same thing. Red car should not be coming over like that. Screw those dumb rules- that was a racing incident. The White car should not get any penalty.
My rule #1-I'm not lifting in a spec series if I'm side by side and have a run on you. You try and come over.....your fault if you see me or not.
Red car needed more situational awareness.
Glad everyone was OK though.

Speedtoys

Wow.

Ok...good luck with that.

But using, what I assume to be _your_ rules, the outcome does not change.

SCCA's 6.11.1(B):
White car had racing room, was not in the dirt when contact happened...and...

6.11.1(C):
There was no abrupt change in position by the red car. The best view of that is from the red car's video. A consistent shift to the left for 100s of yards.

6.11.1(D):
The White car is 100% responsible for making the pass safely. Blocking was not in play, as defined by



So..I think Ive covered the SCCA rulebook on this now, as well.

The SCCA allows more interpretation, but that's where, I think red car would win in a review. It was not purposeful, white car badly wanted to be in a bad place, and a bad thing resulted.

BC

He has a point. How far off is he from "real" racing rules.

mrbill_fl

If I saw no video I would blame the white car, if I saw the red car video only, I would think he was hit in the rear. and blame white car....

but when I saw the white car video, it would be clear to me, both cars were side by side for a while, 'racing'. you can't just run someone off the road on a straight.


the red car was well over the middle of the track when he moved over a little more. no place for white car to go but off the track, or straight into the door.

ps; thread merge 8)... lets see how this plays out with the more experienced Drovers....

BC

Lewis would have been given a 5 grid spot if he moved over like that.

Circuit Motorsports

Double Post

Circuit Motorsports

You do understand that's how it's done pretty much everywhere but PCA and NASA

The way this rule is being interpreted is that it allows/encourages the chop.

Mike Simard

The red car had been passed earlier and he was still off pace. Because of that he should have expected the white car, that was moments ago next to his door, to likely be where it was before moving completely across the track on a straight.
This idea that someone is not allowed to be next to another car or they'll be held at fault and the lead car can take up track with no responsibility to others behind him is absurd, the rules relating to passing are intended for turns, no straights.

I really can't believe you're taking this position after seeing the other video.
I'm a NASA racer and have been on track along with the E30 crowd at times. It blows be away that the white car was so harshly penalized, in fact, that's THE harshest punishment I've ever heard of in NASA.

This whole thing stinks, the OP posting all over the internet while taking no responsibility at all, and your towing the company line justifying what looks to racers like a poor decision that punishes an innocent person while the one most responsible charges full speed ahead with no need to take any responsibility.

mark kibort

Thats the best point brought up so far!

I think the ONLY mistake the white car made was to not continue to move left until he was 2 wheels in the dirt/grass. I think the red car sense of SCCA/NASA/PCA/BMW entitlement cost him his race and parts of his car! (and left him open to getting blasted by this experienced racer forum! )

Astroman

Mental note to myself: I don't want to race wheel to wheel with you either.

The guys that I race with each weekend (Close, Cyr, Child, Henderson, Hale, Walsdorf, Faems, Allen, et al); we trust each other to NOT make moves like the red car. In this situation, I would EXPECT each one of them to be there on my rear quarter. I would WANT them to be there. That's what makes it fun. No way I would risk crashing us both out just because the rules say I can.

This is pathetic...

quickxotica

Hey, since it sounds like you are a NASA steward and I’m just a rookie, could you please elaborate on your above conclusions re these CCR sections you cited: (Rule text is in regular font, my questions are in italics after each rule below). Not trying to be a wise-*** here: just want to learn so I know how to avoid get killed out there:

“25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking.”
Once 2 cars are side-by-side, NASA’s definition of blocking (2 impeding moves) seems to lose all relevance since there is only one direction the leading car would ever move (toward the overtaking car, thus impeding the pass). Any 2nd move would be in the opposite direction and thus not impeding (i.e. not blocking). Thus, once overlap exists absolutely no move the leading car makes in the direction of the passing car could ever be called “blocking” (as defined). I think that’s ridiculous and poorly written, but anyway, I agree “blocking” is not at issue here as a result of that language… but what about “the overtaken driver must be aware that he/she is being passed”? Clearly the red car ignored that part. Furthermore you conclude the white car was at fault per this rule for failure to complete the pass safely…. But it appears from the video there was plenty of straightaway remaining (not to mention corner-entry) for the pass to be completed safely IF the red car hadn’t run him off the road halfway down the straight. After the incident, you can see tons of straight track ahead, and in fact a 3rd car zooms by on the right side, clearly indicating the red car had no NEED to be easing leftward so early.

“25.4.2 Punting
Once the trailing car has its front wheel next to the driver of the other vehicle, it is considered that the trailing car has a right to be there. And, that the leading driver must leave the trailing driver enough “racing room.” In most cases, “racing room” is defined as “at least three quarters of one car width.” If adequate racing room is left for the trailing car, and there is incidental contact made between the cars, the contact will be considered “side-to-side.” In most cases, incidental side-to-side contact is considered to be “just a racing incident.” If, in the case of side-to-side contact, one of the two cars leaves the racing surface (involuntarily) then it may still be considered “a racing incident.”

Per the above, given the white car had established a position with his front tire at the red car’s door, this was not a punt. I agree given the ¾ width rule, the white car could have pulled 1/4 width left into the dirt prior to contact, but that is the maximum ground the rule required him to give up. Seems like a wash.

“25.4.3 Right to the Line
The driver in front has the right to choose any line, as long as they are not considered to be blocking. The driver attempting to make a pass shall have the right to the line when their front wheel is next to the driver of the other vehicle.
You say “red car had 25.4.3” (the right to the line), but that ignores the 2nd sentence of the rule which was applicable since the white car had his wheel next to the red car’s door. This is the meat of the entire thing. Once you admit the white car had this position, according the very rule you cite, the white car had a right to his own line, which makes the entire ruling wrong.

“27.11 Issuing Penalties
5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Disqualification”
But, the way “punting” is defined in 25.4.2 above this was not a punt, but at worst a “racing incident” since the contact was “side-to-side.” So there should be no penalty, right?

Lastly, you said: “CCR, figure 4, page 86 is what we see here.”
I respectfully disagree as that figure shows contact at the apex of a corner, not in a straight. There is no figure in the NASA CCR’s that replicates this incident, perhaps because nobody expects a driver who is halfway overlapped to run his competitor off the side of the road in the middle of a straight, hundreds of yards away from the nearest turn? Figure 7 & 8 on pages 89 and 90 look more relevant, but still are not quite right, and the judgments rendered in those two examples are split. This would leave me to believe this should have been deemed a racing incident without penalty to anyone.

How am I doing?

usctrojanGT3

Stuff like this is why I'll stick to DE type events.

leejo

If what the red car did was supported by the league's rules and what the white car did is worth of a DQ, points, etc., then I do not want to race in that league.

J richard

^^^^
THIS

And the diagrams in the NASA rule book are to clarify the positions of the cars in a CORNER, they do NOT apply to driving down the straight as this example. The diagrams are irrelevant to a straight. You drive over on someone forcing them off the track with ANY overlap and it's your fault. No 3/4 width, no bumper to the door, you get one move, that's it, come over on someone and its your fault for not being situationally aware. Pretty sure the steward didn't see that second video the penalties would be different. Anyway this seems like a racing incident to me but there would be some finger wagging after the race. If it weren't for that berm it would of been a spin, glad everyone is ok, sorry for the car.