Video of my rollover
06-18-2013, 05:57 PM
#76
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
OK thanks for the education, interesting reading the rules .... like the definition of racing room as 3/4 of a car width 
and once you fail to overtake fall back to less than fender to driver the leading car has the right to drive any line including the one the other car is currently located in ! Which may not be wise but is legal.
and once you fail to overtake fall back to less than fender to driver the leading car has the right to drive any line including the one the other car is currently located in ! Which may not be wise but is legal.
06-18-2013, 05:58 PM
#77
Rennlist Member
just watched it again. the white car moved a little over, til he as on the edge of the race track. nothing he really could have done. I cant think of anything he could have done different. the red car failed to give racing room, knew the guys was close and there, and moved over without care. my-opinion.
But, Jim makes a good point. he didn't have to give him a full car width, just 3/4, so white car should have had two wheels in the dirt before contact I guess.
see how this is..... its obvious, and then its not. That's why racing is so much fun!
But, Jim makes a good point. he didn't have to give him a full car width, just 3/4, so white car should have had two wheels in the dirt before contact I guess.
see how this is..... its obvious, and then its not. That's why racing is so much fun!
06-18-2013, 06:03 PM
#78
Three Wheelin'
Both videos are interesting. I have not read every post, but I doubt we have any real clarity in this thread about what the race director(s) were shown or told and how he/she/they made decisions. So many variables. It really pays to have a lot of experiences with your car, the puzzle-pieces represented by a sequence of turns at a track and your competitor. Here, I cannot assume what was in the original poster's head... what he knew and what he decided. The actions of the white car are more clear... he went on through a door.
It seems clear that both cars got through the previous corner and past the exit, and then the accident happened during prep for the next corner/corner sequence.
Video is great but it is clearly not enough. If I were a steward, I would want a field of view that showed both of the driver's hands, with some indication of braking (like a red light that comes on with the brakes somewhere in the dash in the FOV). And of course some sounds so I could sort of tell when the driver got off of or on to the loud pedal. Here one video is kind of set up in that way and the other is not.
Nonetheless, there is no external system that can tell a steward what a driver was thinking.
Imagine hearing from the white car "I followed the orange car through and the red car and I came through turn XX together. We coexisted and achieved the exit. I held my line and he decided to come over to force me into the grass or to back out, and hit my car. That resulted in his spin."
Or instead, "I decided to go for it. I wasn't sure if he knew I was there, but I went anyway and hoped he'd leave me room. He did in the corner so of course I expected him to as we moved toward the entry to the next corner."
Or Instead, "I was really frustrated and just went for it. I kind of forced him to stay right after the exit, not sure if he needed to move left a bit or not."
?Quien sabe?
Stewards are gonna need video media centers in the next 2-3 years. I saw evidence of this at the last Porsche Racing Club event. It will be interesting to see if the net is improved driving courtesy, loss or productivity, litigation, or who really knows.
My hope is that it improves things.
It seems clear that both cars got through the previous corner and past the exit, and then the accident happened during prep for the next corner/corner sequence.
Video is great but it is clearly not enough. If I were a steward, I would want a field of view that showed both of the driver's hands, with some indication of braking (like a red light that comes on with the brakes somewhere in the dash in the FOV). And of course some sounds so I could sort of tell when the driver got off of or on to the loud pedal. Here one video is kind of set up in that way and the other is not.
Nonetheless, there is no external system that can tell a steward what a driver was thinking.
Imagine hearing from the white car "I followed the orange car through and the red car and I came through turn XX together. We coexisted and achieved the exit. I held my line and he decided to come over to force me into the grass or to back out, and hit my car. That resulted in his spin."
Or instead, "I decided to go for it. I wasn't sure if he knew I was there, but I went anyway and hoped he'd leave me room. He did in the corner so of course I expected him to as we moved toward the entry to the next corner."
Or Instead, "I was really frustrated and just went for it. I kind of forced him to stay right after the exit, not sure if he needed to move left a bit or not."
?Quien sabe?
Stewards are gonna need video media centers in the next 2-3 years. I saw evidence of this at the last Porsche Racing Club event. It will be interesting to see if the net is improved driving courtesy, loss or productivity, litigation, or who really knows.
My hope is that it improves things.
06-18-2013, 06:05 PM
#79
Rennlist Member
06-18-2013, 06:10 PM
#80
Whatever the racing organization, don't these "overlap" rules apply at turn-in of corner entry ? This situation occured in a straight line well before turn-in. Am I missing something here ? How can you pass a car if you can't go side by side in a straight line
06-18-2013, 06:26 PM
#81
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
the red car was only required to leave 3/4 of a car width if and only if the overtaking car was STILL fender to driver, I am beginning to understand why there is quite a bit of contact in NASA racing Now I understand why the OP said the driver of the white car did not know the rules since he KNEW he was pinching the guy off and expected him to slow down to avoid the contact as the rules state he should. Like I said interesting reading for someone used to POC ....
Now I understand why the OP said the driver of the white car did not know the rules since he KNEW he was pinching the guy off and expected him to slow down to avoid the contact as the rules state he should. Like I said interesting reading for someone used to POC ....
06-18-2013, 06:28 PM
#82
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is directly from the NASA rule book. Pay special attention to the last two sentences which seem to sum up this particular incident.
Note that this is not a "on turn-in" incident and NASA rules don't specify where you get to the door of the other car, whether at turn-in or down a straight.
Note that this is not a "on turn-in" incident and NASA rules don't specify where you get to the door of the other car, whether at turn-in or down a straight.
Last edited by Doug007; 11-11-2013 at 06:14 PM.
06-18-2013, 06:33 PM
#83
Rennlist Member
so, I think there is ALL the info needed to make a judgement, but what is lacking is the clear understanding of the rules and the interpretation of the rules in this instance. In my book, I have to put myself in both cars. if im the lead car, I don't start shutting the door, and if I do, I do it VERY VERY slowely .
And being the red car, I would STILL do what they did, but doing so assuming the car behind me knows the rules.
Had it not been tire on tire contact, it would have been likely a lot different, but when that rear tire raised up on contact..a foot either way in the contact, would have been much better.
anyway, I would expect that car to be moving across track to grab a better line, so I would avoid him and move with him as he moved left and continue to accelerate so that eventually I was door to door again and maybe in a position to out brake him into the next turn, or doo a high-low, maneuver at the next turn.
so, if was to look at the rules, there certainly was no fault here. a racing incident. Both drivers could have avoided this. but I would lean toward putting blame on the red car, due to the fact that he had the white car at his door and knew he was still close! But, as SpeedToys says, the lead car has the right to move about the track , and the white car should have moved with him and didn't.
tough call now that you look at it from the written rules perspective.
so, if was to look at the rules, there certainly was no fault here. a racing incident. Both drivers could have avoided this. but I would lean toward putting blame on the red car, due to the fact that he had the white car at his door and knew he was still close! But, as SpeedToys says, the lead car has the right to move about the track , and the white car should have moved with him and didn't.
tough call now that you look at it from the written rules perspective.
Shouldn't you be doing that right now, given that you probably do not?
Read up on:
25.4.1 thru 4.
White car violated 25.4.1 grossly.
White car initiated 25.4.2 by believing he was right. (he was not)
Red car had 25.4.3
Red car did not violate 25.4.4
Ruling is based on 27.11.5
If you were the white car and didnt like this, I would simply and calmly ask that you please appeal my decision (I -HAVE- to accept it) and the IRB will review any -new- evidence that you bring, which can be other video from other cars, or a rule in the book (CCR or Class) that clears you from .1 or .2 above.
All that exists, is the book.
I have considered an 'Extra Credit Points' test in the classes that lays out conduct rules and the associated penalties just to drive home this knowledge in our racers locally. Because when they are not known, things get bent.
I had one racer a few events ago pull a punt, and he calmly says to me "ya..I did it, I'll take the penalty"..then threw a fit when he was DQ'd. Shocking.
06-18-2013, 06:33 PM
#84
I read them. When I read something, I then seek to understand. Now I do. And I think there is interpretation, and politics here, and that is scary, as is the very harsh penalty the white car received. Also...
Your view on this is also suspect, and scary. The fact that you state its so easy to judge from what you see and how you PERCEIVE the written rules (Even the constitution has people called lawyers that argue interpretations and implications of the words written - this is just a racing rule book) means to me (and I am sure many others) that maybe you are not as objective a judger in scenarios like these as you need to be.
I wont even review video with the driver in the same ROOM..there is no point until you need to tell them their penalty.
They can appeal, and an IRB can reivew additional evidence, but "what I meant to do was..." is immaterial. What a driver says adds almost zero to a decision when you have good video and/or physical evidence of contact on the car body.
Nobody screamed, the video from the white car is _damning_ rules wise.
This is literally, a 30 second open-to-closed case with the white car video.
They can appeal, and an IRB can reivew additional evidence, but "what I meant to do was..." is immaterial. What a driver says adds almost zero to a decision when you have good video and/or physical evidence of contact on the car body.
Nobody screamed, the video from the white car is _damning_ rules wise.
This is literally, a 30 second open-to-closed case with the white car video.
06-18-2013, 06:34 PM
#85
Rennlist Member
OK thanks for the education, interesting reading the rules .... like the definition of racing room as 3/4 of a car width and once you fail to overtake fall back to less than fender to driver the leading car has the right to drive any line including the one the other car is currently located in ! Which may not be wise but is legal.
and once you fail to overtake fall back to less than fender to driver the leading car has the right to drive any line including the one the other car is currently located in ! Which may not be wise but is legal.Ya..the details make it fun, and force good decision making all the same.
06-18-2013, 06:35 PM
#86
the red car was only required to leave 3/4 of a car width if and only if the overtaking car was STILL fender to driver, I am beginning to understand why there is quite a bit of contact in NASA racing Now I understand why the OP said the driver of the white car did not know the rules since he KNEW he was pinching the guy off and expected him to slow down to avoid the contact as the rules state he should. Like I said interesting reading for someone used to POC ....
Now I understand why the OP said the driver of the white car did not know the rules since he KNEW he was pinching the guy off and expected him to slow down to avoid the contact as the rules state he should. Like I said interesting reading for someone used to POC ....
06-18-2013, 06:38 PM
#87
Remind me not to race with NASA. I'll go with Jim to POC.
06-18-2013, 06:41 PM
#88
Rennlist Member
I keep asking you to tell me where you are pulling your decisions from.
Your decisions based on rules, have numbers, which ones?
He was left a TON OF RACING ROOM. Was he able to complete the pass safely or not? Was his decision to press the pass while running himself (knowngly) out of room safe, and therefore legal?
He wasn't even in the dirt when the contact happened, so therefore the 3/4 rule _isnt even in play_ here.
Yes, indeed.
06-18-2013, 06:43 PM
#89
Rennlist Member
You actually believe these rules are significantly different anywhere else?
I think NASA is different from SCCA/etc in maybe -2- places. This isn't one of them.
Most CCRs in on course conduct, mirror each other for portability.
06-18-2013, 06:44 PM
#90
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
rest assured they still have incidents and arguments in POC but tend to really try to avoid contact even disallowed bump drafting for 944 spec racers. A somewhat moot point as many 944 spec races now run with NASA