Speedtoys

This is where I go walking to the two cars, to determine where the contact took place on each car.


1) The contact was white car to red car BEHIND the LR tire of the red car. Punt. Minimun penalty, DQ. Additional penalties at RD discretion based on severity, _attitude_, past history, etc.

2) The contact from white to red, was ahead of LR tire of red with damage, minimum penalty, one race suspension. W/O damage, reposition behind deviated car. (definition of damage is interesting)



It would appear from the penalty assigned, a punt, contact AT the tire (tire smoke seen), and a bad attitude.


But from the video alone, no conclusion can be met to satisfy any ruling.
That's what sucks about interweb debate over such things.

Speedtoys

No, it's based on rules.

Understanding of them is critical.


SO WHAT if he came over in this specific case.. That's where knowing the rules matters.

Speedtoys

Based on WHAT rule, Mark?

Speedtoys

The red car was not passed. The white car was nowhere _near_ completing his pass, safely..he was still in the process of his pass when contact occurred.

BC

Rules, by their nature, are going to be interpreted. Hence the reason why "all Men are created equally" didn't mean that technically at first.

Seems to me that the person screaming the loudest ABOUT the rules got what he wanted.

Speedtoys

100% correct, but we do both agree, I think...that a corner tap at high speed is not a "hello I'm here". That's about the most bad thing you can do penalty wise, short of doing it in a waving yellow area as well.

Speedtoys

Yes, and still not a completed pass.

The red car was performing a consistent move to the inside the whole way down that straight...it was no sudden move, and the passing car should have clearly seen that he would not have enough track to COMPLETE his pass safely.

gums

Very different from that view. I was wondering how he could have been turned like that if it was a bump draft. And being so officious about it made me a bit wary.
No, I'd say it looks like the car that rolls squeezed in on the camera car (in this latest clip) and just didn't give room or realize that he was there. Only rules broken were by the victim, if any.

Speedtoys

There was no 'lane change', the red car was making STEADY movement to the left of the track all the way from the exit berm of the corner before the incident.

This was telegraphed to the car behind him from what I can see.

But it doesnt matter.

There also is no block. This doesn't meet that definition either.

There is no case that the red car caused (at any level of fault) this incident.

It could be argued, perhaps, that being RIGHT can still wad up your call, but that doesnt lessen the penalty on the white car for not understanding what he was trying to do within the scope of the rules.

The rules do not allow 'intent' of an action to come into play, only what was done, by who, and by location on the track.

Cars get penalties, not drivers..that's the most fair way to review incidents, the meat bag in the drivers seat isn't what you review.

Speedtoys

Which again, is not supported by racing rules.

The white car was in a world of wrong on this..he knew the car was coming over, he should have known what situation he put himself into by INITIATING the pass, but never completing it.

CCR, figure 4, page 86 is what we see here.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

Speedtoys

Good point.

However, it does not make the situation the white car put itself into, any less silly.

disasterman

I will chime in for the red car being at fault after watching both videos.

Speedtoys

That's because you dont know the rules...nobody had to say a word here, no screaming the loudest at all.

I wont even review video with the driver in the same ROOM..there is no point until you need to tell them their penalty.

They can appeal, and an IRB can reivew additional evidence, but "what I meant to do was..." is immaterial. What a driver says adds almost zero to a decision when you have good video and/or physical evidence of contact on the car body.


Nobody screamed, the video from the white car is _damning_ rules wise.


This is literally, a 30 second open-to-closed case with the white car video.

Racerrob

+3. The problem I have is the red car knew he was there as he gave him room in the corner. Plus, I think the red car beats him to the chute even if he gives him room so why move over?

mark kibort

so, I think there is ALL the info needed to make a judgement, but what is lacking is the clear understanding of the rules and the interpretation of the rules in this instance. In my book, I have to put myself in both cars. if im the lead car, I don't start shutting the door, and if I do, I do it VERY VERY slowely . you have to dirve to avoid contact, not only in club racing, but if this was Lemans P1. what does the red car have to gain, by moving over then crashing himself out of the race!??

If im the white car I expect the idiot in front of me. (because all cars in front of me are the idiots, but because if they wernt, why do I want to get by them so bad? ) anyway, I would expect that car to be moving across track to grab a better line, so I would avoid him and move with him as he moved left and continue to accelerate so that eventually I was door to door again and maybe in a position to out brake him into the next turn, or doo a high-low, maneuver at the next turn.

so, if was to look at the rules, there certainly was no fault here. a racing incident. Both drivers could have avoided this. but I would lean toward putting blame on the red car, due to the fact that he had the white car at his door and knew he was still close! But, as SpeedToys says, the lead car has the right to move about the track , and the white car should have moved with him and didn't.
tough call now that you look at it from the written rules perspective.