Mishaps, I still don't get it.
06-04-2013, 09:54 PM
#92
Wow... one little video by MSTACH and so many comments.
I have zero tolerance for car-to-car contact. If you stick your nose where you can't complete a pass and get hit, or you slam the door on someone and get hit, either one is your fault. Don't come crying to me!
1) I can hear the in-car driver "I was TRYING to make a pass and he shut the door on me". It took me a while to learn this. "Trying" to make a pass is a losing proposition: You don't complete the pass, then have to back off and you end up losing track position. I'm either "passing" or "following" (and working to improve my track position).
2) I see too many people that "try" to pass and don't think through how they're going to complete the pass. As several others noted, if you're stuck on driver's right after T5 and go into the Laces (T6) with the other car on your left, where are you going to go?!?! You now have overlap, are trapped to the outside of the turn and have given the other driver the inside line at T6.
From T5 to T6, it's a downhill drag race. It's very short. If you have just a little overlap (as in the video) and have nearly equal HP, you're not going to complete the pass.
3) And the same argument goes against the chopper. Why close the door in T5 and risk your car? I'd rather have the rear car trapped to my right. Then I won't track out as I go through T5 (as the lead car, I can choose the middle line) and pin the other driver to the right. I now have the inside line at T6 and I'm in the lead when we exit T6. Thank you very much! The rear car just wasted 2 turns and lost track position.
4) Another thing I see is people don't think of what the other driver knows or can see. As others have commented, hanging out in the leading car's blind spot with just a little overlap is not a good plan. You're asking to get hit.
And don't get me started on 13/13s. I think it's pathetic how PCA doesn't define on track behavior. We spend a ton of money on going to the races and no one wants to write down the rules.
I have zero tolerance for car-to-car contact. If you stick your nose where you can't complete a pass and get hit, or you slam the door on someone and get hit, either one is your fault. Don't come crying to me!
1) I can hear the in-car driver "I was TRYING to make a pass and he shut the door on me". It took me a while to learn this. "Trying" to make a pass is a losing proposition: You don't complete the pass, then have to back off and you end up losing track position. I'm either "passing" or "following" (and working to improve my track position).
2) I see too many people that "try" to pass and don't think through how they're going to complete the pass. As several others noted, if you're stuck on driver's right after T5 and go into the Laces (T6) with the other car on your left, where are you going to go?!?! You now have overlap, are trapped to the outside of the turn and have given the other driver the inside line at T6.
From T5 to T6, it's a downhill drag race. It's very short. If you have just a little overlap (as in the video) and have nearly equal HP, you're not going to complete the pass.
3) And the same argument goes against the chopper. Why close the door in T5 and risk your car? I'd rather have the rear car trapped to my right. Then I won't track out as I go through T5 (as the lead car, I can choose the middle line) and pin the other driver to the right. I now have the inside line at T6 and I'm in the lead when we exit T6. Thank you very much! The rear car just wasted 2 turns and lost track position.
4) Another thing I see is people don't think of what the other driver knows or can see. As others have commented, hanging out in the leading car's blind spot with just a little overlap is not a good plan. You're asking to get hit.
And don't get me started on 13/13s. I think it's pathetic how PCA doesn't define on track behavior. We spend a ton of money on going to the races and no one wants to write down the rules.
06-04-2013, 10:17 PM
#93
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Hey, I've had my own, and deservedly so!
6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct
A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track.
B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters.
C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room. Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.
D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7.
However, the underlying responsibility STILL needs to be on the overtaking car, for without that, there's no incident...
Scroll down to "Vintage Racing Etiquette" on this page: http://www.peterkrause.net/Krause_%2...ck_Wisdom.html
I found out that the BMWCCA Club Race School (with my former students James Clay, Jason Crist and Ron Checca) handed this out (fifteen years old?!?!?!!) this past weekend at NJMP to new racers...
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
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Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
Last edited by ProCoach; 06-04-2013 at 11:07 PM.
06-04-2013, 10:20 PM
#94
Race Car
I thought you needed to get to the door before the turn in, to get room at the apex.
http://www.randypobst.com/index.cfm?...e&mag_id=14922
More knowledge of the natural laws of passing equals less crashing. Having just been unceremoniously torpedoed out of the championship lead by an experienced and fast yet still young racer who should know better, I've been inspired to climb back up on my passing soapbox. Adam, remember Randy's Rule of Racing #29: Never hit the guy that writes the column! We SCCA road racers need a simple, standardized passing guide. After a recent World Challenge driver's meeting, I suggested to our venerable and wise chief steward Pat DiNatale that we should have a few short and to-the-point briefings during our meetings to help bring all our competitors to the same level of understanding. It would be training for the rookies and establish standards for the regular drivers, and maybe help tone down the loose cannons. My goal is to take this further, too. I propose that the SCCA define and put on paper a few fundamental natural laws of passing.
Since I first started racing in 1985, I have been surprised by how very little is written on the subject in the General Competition Rules (GCR). I recall only a noble and vague reference to the responsibility for a safe pass resting upon the car doing the passing. Let's provide a couple simple definitions and diagrams. Anything will be an improvement. Our race stewards need better guidance, too. I recall a visit to the SOM at a National race where my crasher proudly displayed his in-car video. "See? Randy hit me right in the nose with his back wheel." They all looked at me and nodded in agreement. I was stunned speechless by the ignorance. Like the Police song, "Da-doo-doo-doo, Da-daa-daa-daa, is all I want to say to you."
Most of what I've learned has come through paddock talk (too random) and the on-track school of hard knocks (too expensive and too dangerous). We have many crashes because drivers simply do not understand what constitutes a safe pass. I like my most basic rule: If you can see it, don't hit it. This means if by the normal turn-in point the other racer is still far enough ahead that you can see it, then you do not have a clean pass, you did not take the line away. Back off, give up the corner, try again later. It also means that you have the responsibility to know that you have enough of a braking and handling advantage in the corner entry to get in there without contact. The inverse is also true. If your attacker appears in your peripheral vision, inside, before the turn-in point, then he won the corner. Your best bet is to back off and follow him through the apex. Trying to hang on from outside and behind will probably end up with you off the road. "But many times it is close, not at all clear" you say. I know just what you're talking about. That's when you go through side-by-side, Hero, leaving each other the pro racer's "car-width-and-an-inch," and the car with the best traction and torque off the corner wins. Good racers do it all the time. Two can tango.
http://www.randypobst.com/index.cfm?...e&mag_id=14922
More knowledge of the natural laws of passing equals less crashing. Having just been unceremoniously torpedoed out of the championship lead by an experienced and fast yet still young racer who should know better, I've been inspired to climb back up on my passing soapbox. Adam, remember Randy's Rule of Racing #29: Never hit the guy that writes the column! We SCCA road racers need a simple, standardized passing guide. After a recent World Challenge driver's meeting, I suggested to our venerable and wise chief steward Pat DiNatale that we should have a few short and to-the-point briefings during our meetings to help bring all our competitors to the same level of understanding. It would be training for the rookies and establish standards for the regular drivers, and maybe help tone down the loose cannons. My goal is to take this further, too. I propose that the SCCA define and put on paper a few fundamental natural laws of passing.
Since I first started racing in 1985, I have been surprised by how very little is written on the subject in the General Competition Rules (GCR). I recall only a noble and vague reference to the responsibility for a safe pass resting upon the car doing the passing. Let's provide a couple simple definitions and diagrams. Anything will be an improvement. Our race stewards need better guidance, too. I recall a visit to the SOM at a National race where my crasher proudly displayed his in-car video. "See? Randy hit me right in the nose with his back wheel." They all looked at me and nodded in agreement. I was stunned speechless by the ignorance. Like the Police song, "Da-doo-doo-doo, Da-daa-daa-daa, is all I want to say to you."
Most of what I've learned has come through paddock talk (too random) and the on-track school of hard knocks (too expensive and too dangerous). We have many crashes because drivers simply do not understand what constitutes a safe pass. I like my most basic rule: If you can see it, don't hit it. This means if by the normal turn-in point the other racer is still far enough ahead that you can see it, then you do not have a clean pass, you did not take the line away. Back off, give up the corner, try again later. It also means that you have the responsibility to know that you have enough of a braking and handling advantage in the corner entry to get in there without contact. The inverse is also true. If your attacker appears in your peripheral vision, inside, before the turn-in point, then he won the corner. Your best bet is to back off and follow him through the apex. Trying to hang on from outside and behind will probably end up with you off the road. "But many times it is close, not at all clear" you say. I know just what you're talking about. That's when you go through side-by-side, Hero, leaving each other the pro racer's "car-width-and-an-inch," and the car with the best traction and torque off the corner wins. Good racers do it all the time. Two can tango.
06-04-2013, 10:24 PM
#95
Rennlist Member
Scroll down to "Vintage Racing Etiquette" on this page: http://www.peterkrause.net/Krause_%2...ck_Wisdom.html
I found out that the BMWCCA Club Race School (with my former students James Clay, Jason Crist and Ron Checca) handed this out (fifteen years old?!?!?!!) this past weekend at NJMP to new racers...
I found out that the BMWCCA Club Race School (with my former students James Clay, Jason Crist and Ron Checca) handed this out (fifteen years old?!?!?!!) this past weekend at NJMP to new racers...
Peter, thanks for the article.....
06-04-2013, 10:30 PM
#96
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I have to say, the Rookie Briefing at COTA from Bryan and Vicki was VERY good, the use of the Sebring video was AWESOME!
Problem is that the people that needed to see it WEREN'T THERE! Hahahaha!
06-04-2013, 10:34 PM
#97
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http://www.randypobst.com/index.cfm?...e&mag_id=14922
I suggested to our venerable and wise chief steward Pat DiNatale that we should have a few short and to-the-point briefings during our meetings to help bring all our competitors to the same level of understanding. It would be training for the rookies and establish standards for the regular drivers, and maybe help tone down the loose cannons.
Let's provide a couple simple definitions and diagrams. Anything will be an improvement. Our race stewards need better guidance, too. I recall a visit to the SOM at a National race where my crasher proudly displayed his in-car video. "See? Randy hit me right in the nose with his back wheel." They all looked at me and nodded in agreement. I was stunned speechless by the ignorance.
We have many crashes because drivers simply do not understand what constitutes a safe pass. I like my most basic rule: If you can see it, don't hit it. This means if by the normal turn-in point the other racer is still far enough ahead that you can see it, then you do not have a clean pass, you did not take the line away. Back off, give up the corner, try again later.
That's when you go through side-by-side, Hero, leaving each other the pro racer's "car-width-and-an-inch," and the car with the best traction and torque off the corner wins. Good racers do it all the time. Two can tango.
I suggested to our venerable and wise chief steward Pat DiNatale that we should have a few short and to-the-point briefings during our meetings to help bring all our competitors to the same level of understanding. It would be training for the rookies and establish standards for the regular drivers, and maybe help tone down the loose cannons.
Let's provide a couple simple definitions and diagrams. Anything will be an improvement. Our race stewards need better guidance, too. I recall a visit to the SOM at a National race where my crasher proudly displayed his in-car video. "See? Randy hit me right in the nose with his back wheel." They all looked at me and nodded in agreement. I was stunned speechless by the ignorance.
We have many crashes because drivers simply do not understand what constitutes a safe pass. I like my most basic rule: If you can see it, don't hit it. This means if by the normal turn-in point the other racer is still far enough ahead that you can see it, then you do not have a clean pass, you did not take the line away. Back off, give up the corner, try again later.
That's when you go through side-by-side, Hero, leaving each other the pro racer's "car-width-and-an-inch," and the car with the best traction and torque off the corner wins. Good racers do it all the time. Two can tango.
06-04-2013, 11:58 PM
#98
Great conversation. PCA should listen. 13/13s have been inconsistently doled out since the beginning and shrouded in secrecy and gossip.
FYI: I wish that video was in a different format, does not show up on my Mac.
FYI: I wish that video was in a different format, does not show up on my Mac.
06-05-2013, 12:47 AM
#99
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For me, most (if not all) of the complexity in this subject gets stripped away if you lose the concepts of 'turn in', 'apex', 'line', 'turn' (and 'ownership' thereof). Just straighten out the track in your mind and things become much clearer. It is wrong to impede (block) the progress of another car, period -- regardless if it's in a straight line or in a middle of a turn. The fact that a car is ahead 'at the point of turn in' by no means appoints it the 'ownership of that apex'. 'Turning in' doesn't give you the right to impede (block) the path of another car, leaving it no other choice but to either hit you or drive off track. The responsibility is with the car having track-room surplus (the outside car) not with the one whose track-room is being taken away.
Most of the rules quoted/mentioned here (scca, skip, vintage) seem to distill to this simple root-concept of 'leaving room' for others to co-exist with you on the track.
Most of the rules quoted/mentioned here (scca, skip, vintage) seem to distill to this simple root-concept of 'leaving room' for others to co-exist with you on the track.
06-05-2013, 08:46 AM
#100
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For me, most (if not all) of the complexity in this subject gets stripped away if you lose the concepts of 'turn in', 'apex', 'line', 'turn' (and 'ownership' thereof).
The fact that a car is ahead 'at the point of turn in' by no means appoints it the 'ownership of that apex'. 'Turning in' doesn't give you the right to impede (block) the path of another car, leaving it no other choice but to either hit you or drive off track.
Most of the rules quoted/mentioned here (scca, skip, vintage) seem to distill to this simple root-concept of 'leaving room' for others to co-exist with you on the track.
The fact that a car is ahead 'at the point of turn in' by no means appoints it the 'ownership of that apex'. 'Turning in' doesn't give you the right to impede (block) the path of another car, leaving it no other choice but to either hit you or drive off track.
Most of the rules quoted/mentioned here (scca, skip, vintage) seem to distill to this simple root-concept of 'leaving room' for others to co-exist with you on the track.
If all incidents unfolded in painfully slow-motion (like the specific video we're talking about here), its easier to adopt your desired outcome. Most contact incidents that I have seen have much quicker closing rates and illustrate a judgment error from the overtaking car that they're going too quickly and realize too late to fix.
Witness the Monaco GP, Perez got Button, Button got Perez, Perez got Button back, Perez got Alonso, ALL left enough room to avoid contact. Another good example was Sutil the last few laps!
With Kimi, Perez didn't have as much track at the outset, went for it anyway, Kimi squeezed him while he was there and both had their races ruined.
It's hard, but the expectations for behavior in PCA Club Racing can and should be made more clearly.
06-05-2013, 09:18 AM
#101
Rennlist Member
Peter, completely agree.
I suggested that PCA design clear overtaking rules or 'steal' them from Skip in my previous post. Looks like SCCA rules would work, too. IMO, the best rules are the simplest, shortest, and clearest ones. If you are ahead and someone from behind manages to establish ANY overlap then you have a car NEXT to you. Without an overlap, there's no one next to you.
IMO, allocating 'ownership of an apex' based on an arbitrary size of the overlap (full car length, 3/4 length, front bumper to the door, front wheels to rear wheels) unnecessarily complicates matters and leaves space for interpretation and abuse. The determinant should be binary: Was there overlap? Was there a car next to you? Yes or no?
Of course, the rulebook should say nothing about proper strategy and prudent risk management. Not everything that's legal by the rulebook is necessarily optimal from a risk/strategy/race-craft perspective.
I suggested that PCA design clear overtaking rules or 'steal' them from Skip in my previous post. Looks like SCCA rules would work, too. IMO, the best rules are the simplest, shortest, and clearest ones. If you are ahead and someone from behind manages to establish ANY overlap then you have a car NEXT to you. Without an overlap, there's no one next to you.
IMO, allocating 'ownership of an apex' based on an arbitrary size of the overlap (full car length, 3/4 length, front bumper to the door, front wheels to rear wheels) unnecessarily complicates matters and leaves space for interpretation and abuse. The determinant should be binary: Was there overlap? Was there a car next to you? Yes or no?
Of course, the rulebook should say nothing about proper strategy and prudent risk management. Not everything that's legal by the rulebook is necessarily optimal from a risk/strategy/race-craft perspective.
06-05-2013, 09:25 AM
#102
I'm in....
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For me, most (if not all) of the complexity in this subject gets stripped away if you lose the concepts of 'turn in', 'apex', 'line', 'turn' (and 'ownership' thereof). Just straighten out the track in your mind and things become much clearer. It is wrong to impede (block) the progress of another car, period -- regardless if it's in a straight line or in a middle of a turn. The fact that a car is ahead 'at the point of turn in' by no means appoints it the 'ownership of that apex'. 'Turning in' doesn't give you the right to impede (block) the path of another car, leaving it no other choice but to either hit you or drive off track. The responsibility is with the car having track-room surplus (the outside car) not with the one whose track-room is being taken away.
Most of the rules quoted/mentioned here (scca, skip, vintage) seem to distill to this simple root-concept of 'leaving room' for others to co-exist with you on the track.
Most of the rules quoted/mentioned here (scca, skip, vintage) seem to distill to this simple root-concept of 'leaving room' for others to co-exist with you on the track.
06-05-2013, 09:51 AM
#104
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Just saw the video. IMO, the white car is 100% to blame for the incident. Stach's car had plenty of overlap -- he was NEXT to the white car and track room should have been provided. Not to even mention that shutting the door like that was probably not the best idea from race-craft/ strategy perspective, given the direction of the next turn at the bottom of the hill.
The white car had already broken the "overlap" or "leave room" rule once before in the same video while going into the turn before the uphill esses in the same video. Just IMO, and assuming the "overlap / leave room" is the rule, of course.
The white car had already broken the "overlap" or "leave room" rule once before in the same video while going into the turn before the uphill esses in the same video. Just IMO, and assuming the "overlap / leave room" is the rule, of course.
06-05-2013, 09:56 AM
#105
Rennlist Member
