Mishaps, I still don't get it.
06-07-2013, 11:38 AM
#241
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06-07-2013, 11:47 AM
#242
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I think those that are willing to air their dirty laundry in a public forum are in the minority and PCA is generally tight-lipped about incidents out of respect for racer privacy.
Does anybody know if the other racing organizations like NASA, SCCA, POC, or VRG are more transparent with respect to disciplinary actions?
Does anybody know if the other racing organizations like NASA, SCCA, POC, or VRG are more transparent with respect to disciplinary actions?
SCCA used to post the assignment of driver "points" awarded for incident fault and then posted in the Monthy Notes, the driver suspensions. NASA does not publish 13/13 (nor do they sanction anywhere close to the percentage of incidents PCA Club Racing does, by my rough calculations), can't say about POC, but the battle has RAGED for years about publishing the VMC (Vintage Motorsports Council) 13/13 list.
The reason why is that some groups (and I can only speak to the East Coast stuff) like VRG and VDCA are very strict, VSCDA and RMVR are somewhat strict and only rarely do larger groups like SVRA and HSR report incidents to the central clearing house, VMC.
Lately, they have begun releasing the list, a copy can be found here: http://www.vintageracerules.com/foru...202013.xls.pdf
I think this is good. There are some folks who have gone off probation but are still listed so that organizers and administrators can "track" driver history.
I can see why PCA Club Racing doesn't want to publish that, and as a private club, they don't need to.
I have heard of individual competitors threatening legal action for being "outed," sheesh!
Hahaha! Did that at COTA and there were some mighty fine people in that room!
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06-07-2013, 11:48 AM
#243
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Funny, but that's exactly what I was talking about. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. You still have the choice to decide what type of organization you want to build/support: One where you get ahead by bearing gifts to your over-lords, or one where you get ahead by fair competition overseen by fair arbitrators hired to enforce simple/clear rules.
06-07-2013, 12:05 PM
#244
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In thirty years of racing, with over thirty different organizations, I have NEVER seen a Steward swayed by gifts or anything else "in kind." NEVER!
Some do better than others due to experience, having been a driver, number of cases adjudicated, sort of like a judge.
Some do worse, due to the relationship (positive or negative) that the Stewards may have with the competitor/prep shop/coach, etc.
Some organizations have a series steward (I think of Dave Panas for the F2000 Pro Series, Paul Walters for ALMS or Beaux Barfield for IRL), some swap out among a rotating roster (F1, through the FIA), but the benefit of Stewards is their EXPERIENCE!
I want that when I go before them.
Sorry, just feeling a little put upon as someone who's had to make these judgments before...
06-07-2013, 12:08 PM
#245
SBRS, some pro series and even some vintage events have paid stewards. PCA Club Racing, SCCA and others don't.
In thirty years of racing, with over thirty different organizations, I have NEVER seen a Steward swayed by gifts or anything else "in kind." NEVER!
Some do better than others due to experience, having been a driver, number of cases adjudicated, sort of like a judge.
Some organizations have a series steward (I think of Dave Panas for the F2000 Pro Series, Paul Walters for ALMS or Beaux Barfield for IRL), some swap out among a rotating roster (F1, through the FIA), but the benefit of Stewards is their EXPERIENCE! I want that when I go before them.
Sorry, just feeling a little put upon as someone who's had to make these judgments before...
In thirty years of racing, with over thirty different organizations, I have NEVER seen a Steward swayed by gifts or anything else "in kind." NEVER!
Some do better than others due to experience, having been a driver, number of cases adjudicated, sort of like a judge.
Some organizations have a series steward (I think of Dave Panas for the F2000 Pro Series, Paul Walters for ALMS or Beaux Barfield for IRL), some swap out among a rotating roster (F1, through the FIA), but the benefit of Stewards is their EXPERIENCE! I want that when I go before them.
Sorry, just feeling a little put upon as someone who's had to make these judgments before...
Want a more legalistic system, plenty of more expensive pro series available...
06-07-2013, 12:11 PM
#246
Or become a corner worker or scrutineer or steward and then listen to all the whining about how bad your subjective judgement calls suck or are unfair etc...
I love racing in pca, world class tracks with world class competition at the front of most fields...
I love racing in pca, world class tracks with world class competition at the front of most fields...
06-07-2013, 12:26 PM
#248
I'm in....
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Oh hell no. I used to be a softball umpire. Even when you are right on a close call you **** off half the people. I'm glad somebody is willing to to it!
06-07-2013, 12:31 PM
#249
Three Wheelin'
Funny, but that's exactly what I was talking about. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. You still have the choice to decide what type of organization you want to build/support: One where you get ahead by bearing gifts to your over-lords, or one where you get ahead by fair competition overseen by fair arbitrators hired to enforce simple/clear rules.When filling out your paperwork and getting your medical done after an incident. Review you video and take it with you. I would always head to meet with the steward prepared to make my case at that time. If you have it in your hand, he or she is going to look at it. The discussion may or may not have been quite different at that point.
No body damage....10 incidents stacked up, maybe a couple pretty significant, Oh yeah, the stewards are reviewing and making decisions while still watching all the other races and controlling those as well...PCA wants to not ruin your weekend, both drivers were pretty cool about it....I could keep listing things.....
Do just one race as a National volunteer and I guarantee you will have a new appreciation for how much work these folks are doing.
It's easy on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and now Friday......to say what the decision should have been. I guess they could have waited to review all the relative data, could have kept both drivers out of the next session or sessions.....
The dive bomb was an ill advised pass on both occasions but there are so many factors around the rest of the decisions etc. that we never know about.
06-07-2013, 01:19 PM
#250
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Simple rules, applied consistently make everyone better off, including the hardworking stewards -- they make their job much easier.
I've already repeated few times here that I have only raced in SBRS and have never done a PCA club race so have no basis to provide any input from experience. Relax.
06-07-2013, 01:32 PM
#251
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I have been watching this thread as well as the thread on the 13/13 petition and want to add my 2 cents.
I have been lucky enough to have been in this sport for over 30 years, in Vintage, Grand Am (6.5 years) PCA and NASA. I have seen my share of incidents and have been the recipient of heartbreak (and a broken back) due to others bonehead moves. I know what it is like to be punted and i don't like it.
Over the years I have learned that part of my race craft is knowing what to do and when to do it. I have also learned who to trust and who to keep a close eye on when racing in close quarters. All too often I have made the decision to let someone go and deal with them later. I have found dealing with them later is very often not required as the guy is off track or has taken out someone else. When I started racing I did not have this mindset, it was more inline with an all or nothing style.
I believe if we all knew when to fight the fight and when to say "no thanks", many of the problems noted here would not go to Stewards.
Mark
I have been lucky enough to have been in this sport for over 30 years, in Vintage, Grand Am (6.5 years) PCA and NASA. I have seen my share of incidents and have been the recipient of heartbreak (and a broken back) due to others bonehead moves. I know what it is like to be punted and i don't like it.
Over the years I have learned that part of my race craft is knowing what to do and when to do it. I have also learned who to trust and who to keep a close eye on when racing in close quarters. All too often I have made the decision to let someone go and deal with them later. I have found dealing with them later is very often not required as the guy is off track or has taken out someone else. When I started racing I did not have this mindset, it was more inline with an all or nothing style.
I believe if we all knew when to fight the fight and when to say "no thanks", many of the problems noted here would not go to Stewards.
Mark
06-07-2013, 01:37 PM
#252
Race Car
I think I flagged for 15 years with SCCA -for free .
PCA, nasa, pboc, and skippy paid a flat rate around $75/day... but often there was only 1 worker per station.
-its harder that it looks to get car numbers when the field is packed. and you normally needed 2 witnesses for things like passing under yellow.
Timing and scoring was worse... before transponders. way too much like work.
-All drivers should try it. it will give you respect for that job... harder than it looks.
The other thing is when you stand at a corner you will understand why black numbers on a Red car is bad idea.
06-07-2013, 01:53 PM
#253
I think I flagged for 15 years with SCCA -for free .
PCA, nasa, pboc, and skippy paid a flat rate around $75/day... but often there was only 1 worker per station.
-its harder that it looks to get car numbers when the field is packed. and you normally needed 2 witnesses for things like passing under yellow.
Timing and scoring was worse... before transponders. way too much like work.
-All drivers should try it. it will give you respect for that job... harder than it looks.
The other thing is when you stand at a corner you will understand why black numbers on a Red car is bad idea.
PCA, nasa, pboc, and skippy paid a flat rate around $75/day... but often there was only 1 worker per station.
-its harder that it looks to get car numbers when the field is packed. and you normally needed 2 witnesses for things like passing under yellow.
Timing and scoring was worse... before transponders. way too much like work.
-All drivers should try it. it will give you respect for that job... harder than it looks.
The other thing is when you stand at a corner you will understand why black numbers on a Red car is bad idea.
...and got it, thx!
06-07-2013, 02:02 PM
#254
I have been watching this thread as well as the thread on the 13/13 petition and want to add my 2 cents.
I have been lucky enough to have been in this sport for over 30 years, in Vintage, Grand Am (6.5 years) PCA and NASA. I have seen my share of incidents and have been the recipient of heartbreak (and a broken back) due to others bonehead moves. I know what it is like to be punted and i don't like it.
Over the years I have learned that part of my race craft is knowing what to do and when to do it. I have also learned who to trust and who to keep a close eye on when racing in close quarters. All too often I have made the decision to let someone go and deal with them later. I have found dealing with them later is very often not required as the guy is off track or has taken out someone else. When I started racing I did not have this mindset, it was more inline with an all or nothing style.
I believe if we all knew when to fight the fight and when to say "no thanks", many of the problems noted here would not go to Stewards.
Mark
I have been lucky enough to have been in this sport for over 30 years, in Vintage, Grand Am (6.5 years) PCA and NASA. I have seen my share of incidents and have been the recipient of heartbreak (and a broken back) due to others bonehead moves. I know what it is like to be punted and i don't like it.
Over the years I have learned that part of my race craft is knowing what to do and when to do it. I have also learned who to trust and who to keep a close eye on when racing in close quarters. All too often I have made the decision to let someone go and deal with them later. I have found dealing with them later is very often not required as the guy is off track or has taken out someone else. When I started racing I did not have this mindset, it was more inline with an all or nothing style.
I believe if we all knew when to fight the fight and when to say "no thanks", many of the problems noted here would not go to Stewards.
Mark