sbelles

+1 Even a Boxster could break loose under those circumstances.

Veloce Raptor

THIS is the salient point here. It can be done, but seems to be escaping some people. My co driver and I had no problem doing it this morning, in truly ATROCIOUS standing-water conditions, in a car 180 lbs overweight on rain tires having only approximately 1/16" of tread left. And still got a podium sticker. Didn't spin. Didn't go off. Didn't even get a wheel off. And didn't cause anyone else to go off either. We planned our race & our pace for the conditions, and stuck to the plan.

It can be done.

As for the pace car, this can be the problem when non-racers drive the pace car (not sure this is the case here) and can't do a 60 mph pace all around the track. I have driven a pace car on many occasions, and it really is a challenge maintaining that pace in corners with a field of drivers on full slicks in cold weather. But often, the pace car driver rols is "honorary", given to a sponsor or club executive. Again, I don't know whether this was the case this weekend, but even in this morning's Deluge Enduro, the pace car (which was unfortunately very busy) was BOG freaking slow.

Streak

You do make a good point and I would agree in some cases. That's at every level though. The consequences are more severe with power and speed of course. I won't disagree with your assessment of what was known either.

I don't know the people involved here but I have seen a driver first hand who bounced off every single car in our class every single weekend and was just an absolute idiot behind the wheel. He never made the right decision. I mean it was egregious. We finally protested and threatened to stop racing with that unnamed organization (it was not PCA) because we did not want the risk of getting hit. He'd get "talked to" and ram someone in the very next race that very same weekend. He never understood that what he was doing was wrong. He'd say "aw shucks I'm real sorry . . ." This asshat never made the right decision and was always over driving and divebombing and punting people off the track etc. I meant truly bad and dangerous and expensive. He finally got thrown out but it took some doing.

This incident, as far as the very short video shows, does not seem to fit the above scenario of an out of control driver. Better awareness of the situation at that point in time may have served him well but he wasn't being a dick. Now if we hear reports of this guy being a dick in qualifying and practice or at other events I might change my opinion.

ProCoach

Word.

Now, this fellow had a brain fart at Mid-Ohio last year which put him on probation, he did a few dumb things at Daytona last year, but didn't touch anyone. The Mid-Ohio incident triggered this 13/13 after this event, IMO. He's also new.

At Sebring, he was fine (and, of course, the first weekend I worked with him. He liked it so much, he hired me for this event). The video review for the stewards of his behavior on-track this weekend satisfied them that he was driving well, driving courteously and was working well. The start line incident was a mistake, one that anyone could have made, given the conditions. The pace car went 45 mph or less...

I ALWAYS have held, very publicly, that racing is the ultimate demonstration of personal responsibility. Like Doc Bundy says, "if lightning hits you driving all alone on the back straight at Road Atlanta, it's YOUR fault!" Andrew understands that and was contrite about that to anyone that asked or listened, except the other driver who hit him when he had no place to go.

Heck, I thought it was his fault, originally. I was at Turn 1, heard the green (everyone's engine note rise), then ominously, heard one engine rev much faster than the others and knew what happened before I heard (and felt) the impact, even though I couldn't see it. Yes, I have seen this happen several times in all levels of racing at Road Atlanta. Then, after review of the video, the full application of throttle occurs successfully BEFORE he hits the damp patch clearly visible in my three videos (one additionally was on him) and then all hell breaks loose. I should have been more charitable in my UNINFORMED assessment.

DAMN Road Atlanta (the only place I have ever had serious accidents in thirty years being on track...) 8-12 foot tall concrete walls, within fifty feet of the paved surface, 85% of the way around the lap. Merely to keep the pro cars out of the spectator areas...

After that? Well, that's the other driver's problem (and responsibility, which PCA stewards thought, too). No excuse to strike, hit another driver or damage someone else's car, no matter how mad or frustrated you are.

winders

Thought, originally? Of course it was his fault.....

Now, on to my bigger question: What is going on here?

Why are we seeing so much carnage in the Cup Car races?

Are there really that many yahoos out there or are racers getting in over their heads with these cars?

Scott

Streak

Let me be clear too that it was his fault and the 13 is deserved as the procuring cause of the incident so I'm not giving anyone a pass just acknowledging that it wasn't because #69 was driving crazy.

Veloce Raptor

Tony Stewart at least says Thank You

BOOGITTY

Streak

I mentioned before that the consequences go up with speed and power so the carnage is more dramatic. That's at least part of it.

Some are in over their heads (no different than other groups). Mistakes are magnified. That much kinetic energy is going to result in some real fireworks. That's part of it.

No one gets too excited about a 15 car spec miata pile up but 3 very expensive cup cars and people talk. That's also part of it.

There's no way to answer your question because I don't think anyone can really say "Yes, all red group drivers are in over their head" or "Every cup car owner is a yahoo."

ProCoach

And that is what happened. The system worked. Onto the next race, except for two good, quick, front of the pack drivers...

winders

I didn't use absolutes and you using them isn't reasonable. I did not suggest that all red group drivers are in over their heads nor did I suggest that every Cup Car driver is a yahoo.

Using the Spec Miata class isn't reasonable either. First, it's not PCA. Second, contact (light) is part of the culture. The last time I checked, that isn't the case with PCA.

Cup Car races appear to have an inordinate amount of contact compared to most other PCA race classes. Is there really more contact? If yes, why?

Scott

Streak

That's the question you asked and those were the answers we could chose from. You are fishing for an answer that supports your opinion.

And I've offered my opinion several times.

chrisc

"As for the pace car, this can be the problem when non-racers drive the pace car (not sure this is the case here) and can't do a 60 mph pace all around the track. I have driven a pace car on many occasions, and it really is a challenge maintaining that pace in corners with a field of drivers on full slicks in cold weather. But often, the pace car driver rols is "honorary", given to a sponsor or club executive. Again, I don't know whether this was the case this weekend, but even in this morning's Deluge Enduro, the pace car (which was unfortunately very busy) was BOG freaking slow. [/QUOTE]

Pace car was driven by a very experienced driver at RA. National controlled the number of pace laps.

Der ABT

Pretty sure they are referring to the speed of the lap as in getting heat in the tires....a long track at 40mph is useless like at Sebring. Road Atlanta it easy to get bunched up on the 19 mile back straight for a start

Veloce Raptor

Yes, I was referring more to the pace itself. It was bog slow. 40 or 45 MPH does nothing when you have slicks, even in warm temperatures, especially when you have relatively long straights like RA.

All IMHO, of course.

ProCoach

You don't even have room to accelerate and brake hard enough to generate heat in that short a period of time. You can go two laps at that speed and get to a much better point or your pace car can get the lead out, stretch out the field for the first half so they can have their head, then bringing the field under control only at the end of the back straight.

What shouldn't happen is bog slow pace from grid exit, then slowing down further the entire length of the back straight so the field is at a crawl by 10A/10B, especially for the slick cars.

For those that haven't run real racing slicks, when the ambient is less than 60 F (it was mid-40's for this), cold (less than activation temperature, say 150 degrees) slicks are like driving on shaved R-comps with standing water on the track...