RA - Gt group, another first lap wreck
03-27-2013, 10:48 AM
#211
Rennlist Member
Hear, hear! Great story and yes, many of us did... How many would admit to starting in a Fiat 850? Heck, that's about all I have in common with Dorsey Schroeder!
Dave, this is why it's important not to take these threads too seriously.
I can see you graduating to one of these extraordinary cars some day. You'd do it proud with the care, consideration and study you've already shown in every car you've taken on track.
Road Atlanta is a challenging track. Even the best have less of a margin for error here than most other places, but that's not reason not to come. It was my first race track that wasn't a roval! When Panoz built the walls to keep the pros out of the spectator areas, it got a lot more unforgiving. Tread gently until you learn it and don't look where you don't want to go!
I disagree completely on the last point. Just like guys here joke about the F-car club (where I started), I thought PCA Club Racing was an insular bunch of snobs and other unprintable things. But having attended several races this year and being set for several more, I have found a warm, caring, close community that offers a great deal of support, both organizationally and in the trenches. I think the fellowship and behavior on-track and off is in the upper realm and certainly better than most pro racing. It's a good place, with good people in some great cars! And infinitely less political and less moribund than the DE culture in many regions.
^^ Truth^^
All the rest is just entertainment and
Dave, this is why it's important not to take these threads too seriously.
I can see you graduating to one of these extraordinary cars some day. You'd do it proud with the care, consideration and study you've already shown in every car you've taken on track.
Road Atlanta is a challenging track. Even the best have less of a margin for error here than most other places, but that's not reason not to come. It was my first race track that wasn't a roval! When Panoz built the walls to keep the pros out of the spectator areas, it got a lot more unforgiving. Tread gently until you learn it and don't look where you don't want to go!
I disagree completely on the last point. Just like guys here joke about the F-car club (where I started), I thought PCA Club Racing was an insular bunch of snobs and other unprintable things. But having attended several races this year and being set for several more, I have found a warm, caring, close community that offers a great deal of support, both organizationally and in the trenches. I think the fellowship and behavior on-track and off is in the upper realm and certainly better than most pro racing. It's a good place, with good people in some great cars! And infinitely less political and less moribund than the DE culture in many regions.
^^ Truth^^
All the rest is just entertainment and
Points taken Peter. Good advice all around. Although I am getting awfully accustomed to having that engine a little forward of the rear axle!
Yeah, you too VR.
03-27-2013, 10:51 AM
#212
Burning Brakes
one way to shut up the lowly slow car drivers is to give them your car for a session so they realize how talentless they are (or if they are faster then you have to just give it to them)...cmon please
You guys could have the meet each other meeting while we all take your cars out, ill pay for the gas for the one i get to drive.
i think the majority of EVERY class out there is filled with good drivers....as others said bad things happen to good and bad drivers.....
its not that we just blame cup drivers, its just that we all enjoy watching the cup races so it gets alot more attention.....although sebring was rediculous....was kinda like a quite hour for the "high run group" (is that better than saying cup races?).
You guys could have the meet each other meeting while we all take your cars out, ill pay for the gas for the one i get to drive.
i think the majority of EVERY class out there is filled with good drivers....as others said bad things happen to good and bad drivers.....
its not that we just blame cup drivers, its just that we all enjoy watching the cup races so it gets alot more attention.....although sebring was rediculous....was kinda like a quite hour for the "high run group" (is that better than saying cup races?).
03-27-2013, 11:04 AM
#213
You guys missed my first racecar clearly. 914 rust bucket racing...got black flagged at my first race for no brake lights...worked very hard to get them working...couldn't , so pulled taillights off the farm trailer I used to haul it and sheet metal screwed them to car!
Smartass 911 owner comes by in his pretty 911 and taunts me with his friends after seeing them, my farm trailer, my auction bought from the city sanitation department pickup tow vehicle.... He says " nice taillights"... Laughing loudly with his buddies as they go by.
End of race and I pulled up to his camp in rust bucket and asked him how he liked the taillights...
Wasn't as funny for him then for some reason.
We all start somewhere, I started at the very bottom.
Smartass 911 owner comes by in his pretty 911 and taunts me with his friends after seeing them, my farm trailer, my auction bought from the city sanitation department pickup tow vehicle.... He says " nice taillights"... Laughing loudly with his buddies as they go by.
End of race and I pulled up to his camp in rust bucket and asked him how he liked the taillights...
Wasn't as funny for him then for some reason.
We all start somewhere, I started at the very bottom.
-Mike
03-27-2013, 11:08 AM
#214
Rennlist Member
one way to shut up the lowly slow car drivers is to give them your car for a session so they realize how talentless they are (or if they are faster then you have to just give it to them)...cmon please
You guys could have the meet each other meeting while we all take your cars out, ill pay for the gas for the one i get to drive.
i think the majority of EVERY class out there is filled with good drivers....as others said bad things happen to good and bad drivers.....
its not that we just blame cup drivers, its just that we all enjoy watching the cup races so it gets alot more attention.....although sebring was rediculous....was kinda like a quite hour for the "high run group" (is that better than saying cup races?).
You guys could have the meet each other meeting while we all take your cars out, ill pay for the gas for the one i get to drive.
i think the majority of EVERY class out there is filled with good drivers....as others said bad things happen to good and bad drivers.....
its not that we just blame cup drivers, its just that we all enjoy watching the cup races so it gets alot more attention.....although sebring was rediculous....was kinda like a quite hour for the "high run group" (is that better than saying cup races?).
Look, I will be bluntly honest here: I would love to race a Cup. I have seriously considered buying what is IMO the most involving, fun modern race car I have ever driven: a 996 Cup. But time available to race it has always held me back, as it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend that kind of $$$, not to mention ongoing tire costs, just to drive it in a few DE's every year. And to what end? Total waste of that car in a DE, IMO. So I keep driving my ratty low-power BMW faster & faster
Many of us IMO would love to race those cars, and we cry inwardly whenever they crash, because they are works of art...just as I did when I saw another voctim of the RA carnage, the baby blue 993 wide body. Another work of art IMO. Cars at this level seem a lot more irreplaceable to many of us than a Spec Boxster or 944 or E car. They aren't--everyone cherishes his or her race car, regardless of what it is. But I guess what I am saying is that--rightly or wrongly--many folks hold the Works Of Art Cars' drivers to a higher standard...and when there are gigantic collisions among them, as has happened at Sebring or Watkins Glen or Road Atlanta, it is often very dramatic and very in view of many watching along the start/finish straightaway.
So I don't think anyone believes Cup drivers are any better or worse than any other PCA racers. But it does cause real angst to folks who love these beautiful cars to see them all balled up on lap 1 turn 1.
Could any of us do better? Who knows. Stuff happens in all run groups. I would never, ever say categorically that I would never spin into another car as the 69 did to the 222 at the start...because I know that it COULD happen.
03-27-2013, 11:15 AM
#215
And I would never ever go desert left after a huge wreck at miller trying to take advantage and gain Position only to tbone a good friend in an imsa race and total his tub and cause 22k damage to the car I had been asked to drive in the race... Never....well you get the idea.
Ongoing knucklehead status confirmed again...
Ongoing knucklehead status confirmed again...
03-27-2013, 11:19 AM
#216
Rennlist Member
Speaking theoretically, of course... 
03-27-2013, 11:19 AM
#217
The Penguin King
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
My name is Mike, and I'm a knucklehead... (well actually an Asshat)
03-27-2013, 11:24 AM
#218
Nordschleife Master
I don't think the Cup drivers are helping their cause by messaging Glen and having him serve as their mouthpiece. It just reconfirms the elitist ivory tower perception. I would love for them to log on and join the conversation. Isn't that the root of Mike's suggestion of the meet and greet? The dialogue is going on right here. Join the conversation and let people get to know you as a person, and once they do, they won't be so quick to villianize and judge you.
03-27-2013, 11:25 AM
#219
Rennlist Member
03-27-2013, 11:36 AM
#220
I don't think the Cup drivers are helping their cause by messaging Glen and having him serve as their mouthpiece. It just reconfirms the elitist ivory tower perception. I would love for them to log on and join the conversation. Isn't that the root of Mike's suggestion of the meet and greet? The dialogue is going on right here. Join the conversation and let people get to know you as a person, and once they do, they won't be so quick to villianize and judge you.
I'm glad they sent me notes, many never post, never will.
Another thought is this...
Throw a bunch of a types in a bullring ,close the gate and tell them to play nice and play fair.
I think pca has done a great job all things considered.
03-27-2013, 11:54 AM
#221
Rennlist
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LOL great points.
Look, I will be bluntly honest here: I would love to race a Cup.
everyone cherishes his or her race car, regardless of what it is.
it does cause real angst to folks who love these beautiful cars to see them balled up.
Could any of us do better? Who knows. Stuff happens in all run groups. I would never, ever say categorically that I would never spin into another car as the 69 did to the 222 at the start...because I know that it COULD happen.
Look, I will be bluntly honest here: I would love to race a Cup.
everyone cherishes his or her race car, regardless of what it is.
it does cause real angst to folks who love these beautiful cars to see them balled up.
Could any of us do better? Who knows. Stuff happens in all run groups. I would never, ever say categorically that I would never spin into another car as the 69 did to the 222 at the start...because I know that it COULD happen.
Also true!
Very true.
True, except in this case, the 69 spun right and the 222 car hit his left front into 69 right front. No "spearing" by the 69 went on and the 222 had absolutely nowhere to go and no time to do anything else.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
03-27-2013, 12:18 PM
#222
Nordschleife Master
I don't mind, better these things come out here in any form than somewhere else... If someone doesnt say what many are thinking then nothing gets done, no opportunity for communication, solutions, or healing.
I'm glad they sent me notes, many never post, never will.
Another thought is this...
Throw a bunch of a types in a bullring ,close the gate and tell them to play nice and play fair.
I think pca has done a great job all things considered.
I'm glad they sent me notes, many never post, never will.
Another thought is this...
Throw a bunch of a types in a bullring ,close the gate and tell them to play nice and play fair.
I think pca has done a great job all things considered.
Fair enough. I'm just a hippy at heart. Peace, love and understanding, man.
03-27-2013, 01:06 PM
#224
Rennlist Member
LOL great points.
Look, I will be bluntly honest here: I would love to race a Cup. I have seriously considered buying what is IMO the most involving, fun modern race car I have ever driven: a 996 Cup. But time available to race it has always held me back, as it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend that kind of $$$, not to mention ongoing tire costs, just to drive it in a few DE's every year. And to what end? Total waste of that car in a DE, IMO. So I keep driving my ratty low-power BMW faster & faster
Many of us IMO would love to race those cars, and we cry inwardly whenever they crash, because they are works of art...just as I did when I saw another voctim of the RA carnage, the baby blue 993 wide body. Another work of art IMO. Cars at this level seem a lot more irreplaceable to many of us than a Spec Boxster or 944 or E car. They aren't--everyone cherishes his or her race car, regardless of what it is. But I guess what I am saying is that--rightly or wrongly--many folks hold the Works Of Art Cars' drivers to a higher standard...and when there are gigantic collisions among them, as has happened at Sebring or Watkins Glen or Road Atlanta, it is often very dramatic and very in view of many watching along the start/finish straightaway.
So I don't think anyone believes Cup drivers are any better or worse than any other PCA racers. But it does cause real angst to folks who love these beautiful cars to see them all balled up on lap 1 turn 1.
Could any of us do better? Who knows. Stuff happens in all run groups. I would never, ever say categorically that I would never spin into another car as the 69 did to the 222 at the start...because I know that it COULD happen.
Look, I will be bluntly honest here: I would love to race a Cup. I have seriously considered buying what is IMO the most involving, fun modern race car I have ever driven: a 996 Cup. But time available to race it has always held me back, as it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend that kind of $$$, not to mention ongoing tire costs, just to drive it in a few DE's every year. And to what end? Total waste of that car in a DE, IMO. So I keep driving my ratty low-power BMW faster & faster
Many of us IMO would love to race those cars, and we cry inwardly whenever they crash, because they are works of art...just as I did when I saw another voctim of the RA carnage, the baby blue 993 wide body. Another work of art IMO. Cars at this level seem a lot more irreplaceable to many of us than a Spec Boxster or 944 or E car. They aren't--everyone cherishes his or her race car, regardless of what it is. But I guess what I am saying is that--rightly or wrongly--many folks hold the Works Of Art Cars' drivers to a higher standard...and when there are gigantic collisions among them, as has happened at Sebring or Watkins Glen or Road Atlanta, it is often very dramatic and very in view of many watching along the start/finish straightaway.
So I don't think anyone believes Cup drivers are any better or worse than any other PCA racers. But it does cause real angst to folks who love these beautiful cars to see them all balled up on lap 1 turn 1.
Could any of us do better? Who knows. Stuff happens in all run groups. I would never, ever say categorically that I would never spin into another car as the 69 did to the 222 at the start...because I know that it COULD happen.
Discussion on the way home was centered on what to risk. We also have a 993 Cup clone that is currently being upgraded to RSR specs... but we're just hesitant to expose it to a chance accident. These cars are rolling works of art, and as Glen said, a wreck of some degree is an imminent event.... So it will remain a track day toy and the SPB will get raced. I suspect there are other guys in D, E, SP3, SP2, SP1, SPB that make similar decisions.
03-27-2013, 01:56 PM
#225
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
After having read every post in this thread, I'll chime in..... I started in a 1968/1974 911 classed as a D car almost 9 years ago. Earned my PCA license and was loving life in 2006. I learned a lot about momentum from people like Dave Scott and Glen Gatlin and got what I feel was the ultimate schooling when Patrick Long took me for a ride in my car during one of Glen's Advanced Schools. To this day, I can't understand how Patrick got what he got out of my cherished longhood 911 racecar! I've since built a 2.4 MFI motor and moved up to E and play with the likes of Jim Buckley and love the daylights out of it.
So, what makes me qualified to post in this thread? I went in on a 2001 Cup mid-year last year and raced it for the first time last October. Just completed my second race weekend in it at TWS two weeks ago. All the things I learned in my E car still apply. I just have more horsepower available to get into REAL TROUBLE now. The thing of it is this....
The Cup guys I had the pleasure to hang with at TWS were all VERY nice guys, including Klaus and his brother. Same camaraderie I saw in the "slow" cars. To a person, they were willing to help discuss racing lines and what you should and should not do in these cars at TWS.
I can also tell you that I was KEENLY aware of everyone around me at every start. T1 at TWS can really bite you if not careful. All weekend long, I drove the Cup like it was my rookie weekend.
I'm not made of money and I readily admit that I will NEVER podium because I'm not willing to beat the living daylights out of my cars. I do a lot of my own work and pay for every red cent that goes into both cars, just as all of us do. To me, both cars are cherished classics that I will hold onto forever.
It's a bit extreme to apply a label to all simply because they race a (more) expensive car. Are there JERKS out there - yes, I've seen them in the GTC classes as well as D and E. But I will say that I've seen far more safe and respectful racers in those same classes. And yes, I was an Asshat long before I was able to acquire my dream car - my 2001 GT3 Cup!!!
Rather than applying a label to all, please recognize that some DO qualify as JERKS while the vast majority do not.
I shall now retire back to my voyeur status!
Toby
So, what makes me qualified to post in this thread? I went in on a 2001 Cup mid-year last year and raced it for the first time last October. Just completed my second race weekend in it at TWS two weeks ago. All the things I learned in my E car still apply. I just have more horsepower available to get into REAL TROUBLE now. The thing of it is this....
The Cup guys I had the pleasure to hang with at TWS were all VERY nice guys, including Klaus and his brother. Same camaraderie I saw in the "slow" cars. To a person, they were willing to help discuss racing lines and what you should and should not do in these cars at TWS.
I can also tell you that I was KEENLY aware of everyone around me at every start. T1 at TWS can really bite you if not careful. All weekend long, I drove the Cup like it was my rookie weekend.
I'm not made of money and I readily admit that I will NEVER podium because I'm not willing to beat the living daylights out of my cars. I do a lot of my own work and pay for every red cent that goes into both cars, just as all of us do. To me, both cars are cherished classics that I will hold onto forever.
It's a bit extreme to apply a label to all simply because they race a (more) expensive car. Are there JERKS out there - yes, I've seen them in the GTC classes as well as D and E. But I will say that I've seen far more safe and respectful racers in those same classes. And yes, I was an Asshat long before I was able to acquire my dream car - my 2001 GT3 Cup!!!
Rather than applying a label to all, please recognize that some DO qualify as JERKS while the vast majority do not.
I shall now retire back to my voyeur status!
Toby