RA - Gt group, another first lap wreck
#61
I'm in....
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There is something to be said about the same cars that are raced at the top levels of our sport by drivers who are not named Long or Bergmeister. No doubt they are a bit harder to drive than my SPB.
This situation doesn't seem to be one of bafoonary. Had he made a bad move in a passing situation or some other low percentage move I might look at this differently. In this case he hit a damp spot. Anyone anytime.
Just my opinion
This situation doesn't seem to be one of bafoonary. Had he made a bad move in a passing situation or some other low percentage move I might look at this differently. In this case he hit a damp spot. Anyone anytime.
Just my opinion
#62
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With challenging weather conditions and between fifteen and twenty percent of the cars suffering damage this past weekend, several in the same way as the 69 car yet without penalty, the message is not getting through. I appreciate the actions of the stewards and David Murry's valuable advice at the drivers meeting called afterwards, but for whatever reason, people are not driving smart not leaving enough margin to insure damage free racing...
It can be done.
As for the pace car, this can be the problem when non-racers drive the pace car (not sure this is the case here) and can't do a 60 mph pace all around the track. I have driven a pace car on many occasions, and it really is a challenge maintaining that pace in corners with a field of drivers on full slicks in cold weather. But often, the pace car driver rols is "honorary", given to a sponsor or club executive. Again, I don't know whether this was the case this weekend, but even in this morning's Deluge Enduro, the pace car (which was unfortunately very busy) was BOG freaking slow.
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#63
Perfect Angel
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Streak,
There is always an excuse, it seems. This is the "pass" I am talking about. It's not like the track being wet in some places was a surprise. The horsepower of the car was not a surprise. The cold tires was not a surprise.
The question stands: What is the problem here? Are people being too aggressive or are they in over their heads?
Scott
There is always an excuse, it seems. This is the "pass" I am talking about. It's not like the track being wet in some places was a surprise. The horsepower of the car was not a surprise. The cold tires was not a surprise.
The question stands: What is the problem here? Are people being too aggressive or are they in over their heads?
Scott
I don't know the people involved here but I have seen a driver first hand who bounced off every single car in our class every single weekend and was just an absolute idiot behind the wheel. He never made the right decision. I mean it was egregious. We finally protested and threatened to stop racing with that unnamed organization (it was not PCA) because we did not want the risk of getting hit. He'd get "talked to" and ram someone in the very next race that very same weekend. He never understood that what he was doing was wrong. He'd say "aw shucks I'm real sorry . . ." This asshat never made the right decision and was always over driving and divebombing and punting people off the track etc. I meant truly bad and dangerous and expensive. He finally got thrown out but it took some doing.
This incident, as far as the very short video shows, does not seem to fit the above scenario of an out of control driver. Better awareness of the situation at that point in time may have served him well but he wasn't being a dick. Now if we hear reports of this guy being a dick in qualifying and practice or at other events I might change my opinion.
#64
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This incident, as far as the very short video shows, does not seem to fit the above scenario of an out of control driver. Better awareness of the situation at that point in time may have served him well but he wasn't being a dick. Now if we hear reports of this guy being a dick in qualifying and practice or at other events I might change my opinion.
Now, this fellow had a brain fart at Mid-Ohio last year which put him on probation, he did a few dumb things at Daytona last year, but didn't touch anyone. The Mid-Ohio incident triggered this 13/13 after this event, IMO. He's also new.
At Sebring, he was fine (and, of course, the first weekend I worked with him. He liked it so much, he hired me for this event). The video review for the stewards of his behavior on-track this weekend satisfied them that he was driving well, driving courteously and was working well. The start line incident was a mistake, one that anyone could have made, given the conditions. The pace car went 45 mph or less...
I ALWAYS have held, very publicly, that racing is the ultimate demonstration of personal responsibility. Like Doc Bundy says, "if lightning hits you driving all alone on the back straight at Road Atlanta, it's YOUR fault!" Andrew understands that and was contrite about that to anyone that asked or listened, except the other driver who hit him when he had no place to go.
Heck, I thought it was his fault, originally. I was at Turn 1, heard the green (everyone's engine note rise), then ominously, heard one engine rev much faster than the others and knew what happened before I heard (and felt) the impact, even though I couldn't see it. Yes, I have seen this happen several times in all levels of racing at Road Atlanta. Then, after review of the video, the full application of throttle occurs successfully BEFORE he hits the damp patch clearly visible in my three videos (one additionally was on him) and then all hell breaks loose. I should have been more charitable in my UNINFORMED assessment.
DAMN Road Atlanta (the only place I have ever had serious accidents in thirty years being on track...) 8-12 foot tall concrete walls, within fifty feet of the paved surface, 85% of the way around the lap. Merely to keep the pro cars out of the spectator areas...
After that? Well, that's the other driver's problem (and responsibility, which PCA stewards thought, too). No excuse to strike, hit another driver or damage someone else's car, no matter how mad or frustrated you are.
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#65
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Thought, originally? Of course it was his fault.....
Now, on to my bigger question: What is going on here?
Why are we seeing so much carnage in the Cup Car races?
Are there really that many yahoos out there or are racers getting in over their heads with these cars?
Scott
Now, on to my bigger question: What is going on here?
Why are we seeing so much carnage in the Cup Car races?
Are there really that many yahoos out there or are racers getting in over their heads with these cars?
Scott
#66
Perfect Angel
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Let me be clear too that it was his fault and the 13 is deserved as the procuring cause of the incident so I'm not giving anyone a pass just acknowledging that it wasn't because #69 was driving crazy.
#68
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Thought, originally? Of course it was his fault.....
Now, on to my bigger question: What is going on here?
Why are we seeing so much carnage in the Cup Car races?
Are there really that many yahoos out there or are racers getting in over their heads with these cars?
Scott
Now, on to my bigger question: What is going on here?
Why are we seeing so much carnage in the Cup Car races?
Are there really that many yahoos out there or are racers getting in over their heads with these cars?
Scott
Some are in over their heads (no different than other groups). Mistakes are magnified. That much kinetic energy is going to result in some real fireworks. That's part of it.
No one gets too excited about a 15 car spec miata pile up but 3 very expensive cup cars and people talk. That's also part of it.
There's no way to answer your question because I don't think anyone can really say "Yes, all red group drivers are in over their head" or "Every cup car owner is a yahoo."
#69
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And that is what happened. The system worked. Onto the next race, except for two good, quick, front of the pack drivers...
#70
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Using the Spec Miata class isn't reasonable either. First, it's not PCA. Second, contact (light) is part of the culture. The last time I checked, that isn't the case with PCA.
Cup Car races appear to have an inordinate amount of contact compared to most other PCA race classes. Is there really more contact? If yes, why?
Scott
#71
Perfect Angel
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Thought, originally? Of course it was his fault.....
Now, on to my bigger question: What is going on here?
Why are we seeing so much carnage in the Cup Car races?
Are there really that many yahoos out there or are racers getting in over their heads with these cars?
Scott
Now, on to my bigger question: What is going on here?
Why are we seeing so much carnage in the Cup Car races?
Are there really that many yahoos out there or are racers getting in over their heads with these cars?
Scott
I didn't use absolutes and you using them isn't reasonable. I did not suggest that all red group drivers are in over their heads nor did I suggest that every Cup Car driver is a yahoo.
Using the Spec Miata class isn't reasonable either. First, it's not PCA. Second, contact (light) is part of the culture. The last time I checked, that isn't the case with PCA.
Cup Car races appear to have an inordinate amount of contact compared to most other PCA race classes. Is there really more contact? If yes, why?
Scott
Using the Spec Miata class isn't reasonable either. First, it's not PCA. Second, contact (light) is part of the culture. The last time I checked, that isn't the case with PCA.
Cup Car races appear to have an inordinate amount of contact compared to most other PCA race classes. Is there really more contact? If yes, why?
Scott
And I've offered my opinion several times.
#72
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"As for the pace car, this can be the problem when non-racers drive the pace car (not sure this is the case here) and can't do a 60 mph pace all around the track. I have driven a pace car on many occasions, and it really is a challenge maintaining that pace in corners with a field of drivers on full slicks in cold weather. But often, the pace car driver rols is "honorary", given to a sponsor or club executive. Again, I don't know whether this was the case this weekend, but even in this morning's Deluge Enduro, the pace car (which was unfortunately very busy) was BOG freaking slow.
[/QUOTE]
Pace car was driven by a very experienced driver at RA. National controlled the number of pace laps.
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Pace car was driven by a very experienced driver at RA. National controlled the number of pace laps.
#73
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Pretty sure they are referring to the speed of the lap as in getting heat in the tires....a long track at 40mph is useless like at Sebring. Road Atlanta it easy to get bunched up on the 19 mile back straight for a start
#74
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Yes, I was referring more to the pace itself. It was bog slow. 40 or 45 MPH does nothing when you have slicks, even in warm temperatures, especially when you have relatively long straights like RA.
All IMHO, of course.
All IMHO, of course.
#75
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You don't even have room to accelerate and brake hard enough to generate heat in that short a period of time. You can go two laps at that speed and get to a much better point or your pace car can get the lead out, stretch out the field for the first half so they can have their head, then bringing the field under control only at the end of the back straight.
What shouldn't happen is bog slow pace from grid exit, then slowing down further the entire length of the back straight so the field is at a crawl by 10A/10B, especially for the slick cars.
For those that haven't run real racing slicks, when the ambient is less than 60 F (it was mid-40's for this), cold (less than activation temperature, say 150 degrees) slicks are like driving on shaved R-comps with standing water on the track...
What shouldn't happen is bog slow pace from grid exit, then slowing down further the entire length of the back straight so the field is at a crawl by 10A/10B, especially for the slick cars.
For those that haven't run real racing slicks, when the ambient is less than 60 F (it was mid-40's for this), cold (less than activation temperature, say 150 degrees) slicks are like driving on shaved R-comps with standing water on the track...