NASA SPEC BOXSTER D.O.A.!!!
02-24-2012, 12:27 PM
#61
If anyone knows what happened, it's nprichards, as he was the administrator that closed the doors on the national spec box organization, and was the successor to Bill Bodine. So if you guys are looking for the inside of the story...
"PCA has decided to not colloborate with any outside sanctioning bodies on the administration of the spec boxster class rules. For this reason we are shutting down the volunteer effort to maintain a spec boxster class that spans sanctioning bodies. To get more information on how the class will be supported in the future please contact your sanctioning body directly.
Nick Richards
Ex-National Administrator
A note to the drivers:
I've received numerous emails and phone calls. The root cause of this is the inability of the sanctioning bodies to play nice together. They are primarily incented to compete against each other so getting them to work together for the benefit of the drivers is somewhat of a foreign concept. If you feel the vision of having a class that gives drivers the broadest option to drive when and where they want I suggest you go to your sanctioning body and demand it. Else this will fragment into oblivion like so many other classes. We were so close in achieving something new and exciting - it's a shame to see it crumble.
Regards,
Nick...
Nick Richards
Ex-National Administrator
A note to the drivers:
I've received numerous emails and phone calls. The root cause of this is the inability of the sanctioning bodies to play nice together. They are primarily incented to compete against each other so getting them to work together for the benefit of the drivers is somewhat of a foreign concept. If you feel the vision of having a class that gives drivers the broadest option to drive when and where they want I suggest you go to your sanctioning body and demand it. Else this will fragment into oblivion like so many other classes. We were so close in achieving something new and exciting - it's a shame to see it crumble.
Regards,
Nick...
Last edited by eric523; 02-24-2012 at 12:51 PM.
02-24-2012, 12:32 PM
#62
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Oh I have lots of history on that topic but I'll save it for now. I just sent this thread to Ryan Flaherty, head of NASA. Hopefully he'll read all your posts and comment.....
02-24-2012, 12:33 PM
#63
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As a former competitor in the series, IMO it would be hard to find a bigger ego than Bodine's. He consistently ignored input, twisted facts, and blindly insisted HE was right when all the evidence was to the contrary. The fact that he, his organization, and his deal with NASA are now hanging out with the dinosaurs while the series thrives under PCA can't surprise anyone who knows the history.
02-24-2012, 01:04 PM
#64
Perfect Angel
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What would happen if you bought an iPad and Apple decided a year later to stop supporting apps? It would sort of **** you off and you'd probably go spend your money on that other tablet maker right?
Nasa has customers who built or purchased cars for this series, a series that Nasa supported last year so what are those customers supposed to do now?
I'm emphasizing the word customer because unlike a club, Nasa is for profit and I pay annual fees, license fees and entry fees for a service that Nasa provides. That service is no longer provided a few short weeks after I re-upped my memberships and licenses.
The customer is getting screwed here and Nasa appear to be the ones who are difficult to deal with because PCA and POC continue racing the series. Hard to look at it any other way. Maybe that's not right. There's always two sides to the story but all I've seen from you are pissy notes like the one on the website and your posts here or on FB.
Why on Earth does it have to be your way or no way? Nasa supports Spec944 and Spec Miata.
Why would SpecBoxster be any different?
What does it really take to incorporate SPB racers into the Autobahn run group?
Could it run in conjunction with GTS and maybe add an assistant liaison to help with paperwork?
Nick, you mentioned elsewhere that all the rules details had been worked out as far as tire/wheel choice etc so tell us what happened. Why do I not have a home at Nasa anymore even though I continue to pay for one?
02-24-2012, 02:35 PM
#66
Nordschleife Master
I'm going to muddy the waters a little bit, but in response to the guys talking about building their cars to be GT class competitive in NASA, we're about to release a short ratio ring and pinion set with special LSD for the 5spd gearbox. I know that given reliability issues and the fact that 5spd gearboxes are notorious for only lasting half a dozen races between services, a lot of SB owners already have a spare in the trailer. If NASA doesn't listen and bring the class back, changing gearboxes back and forth from weekend to weekend to race SB in PCA and GT in NASA is feasible to some people. I'm just throwing it out there for people to consider while they weigh all their various options...
02-24-2012, 03:29 PM
#67
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Here's basically the sequence:
Spec Boxster rules developed out of Porsche Owners Club in SoCal.
Texas group (primarily PCA) adopt rules.
War breaks out over staggered vs. square tire option and LSDs.
Somewhere along the line the LSD argument was dropped. I guess tires where enough to argue about.
SoCal (staggered) vs. Texas (square).
PCA tells Bodine we're a national club, POC is not so PCA calls the shots.
Pissed, Bodine goes to another national club (NASA) and signs deal to have spec in NASA nationally.
PCA says we don't give a crap we are PCA and we call the shots.
Bodine exits to pursue philanthropy work with autistic kids.
NASA is just sort of standing back and watching things unfold at this point.
SoCal (POC)/NorCal (PRC) come to agreement on rules and go to PCA to try to mend fences but at this point PCA says I don't give a crap what they are doing out West we now have more cars than POC, PRC and NASA combined so we call the shots.
POC say, there is virtually zero PCA racing on West Coast and does their own thing based on what their members are asking for.
NASA drops out and I would assume is reassessing.
And that's where we are.
This was probably doomed from the beginning with so many colorful personalities involved. Lesson learned - it's probably impossible to develop a cross sanctioning body class unless the drivers group controlling the rules stick together and one of them is a kick *** lawyer with lots of free time to squash rebellions by the sanctioning bodies.
A lot of drivers on the West Coast are moving to GT classes in POC and NASA since there are so many options to run virtually every weekend. There is still about 30-40 Spec Boxsters running on a regular basis throughout California.
I'm glad to be out of it. It's made going to the race track an unhappy experience and that's sad. Interesting to see how things pan out but for now I'll be playing in the GT classes.
Nick...
Spec Boxster rules developed out of Porsche Owners Club in SoCal.
Texas group (primarily PCA) adopt rules.
War breaks out over staggered vs. square tire option and LSDs.
Somewhere along the line the LSD argument was dropped. I guess tires where enough to argue about.
SoCal (staggered) vs. Texas (square).
PCA tells Bodine we're a national club, POC is not so PCA calls the shots.
Pissed, Bodine goes to another national club (NASA) and signs deal to have spec in NASA nationally.
PCA says we don't give a crap we are PCA and we call the shots.
Bodine exits to pursue philanthropy work with autistic kids.
NASA is just sort of standing back and watching things unfold at this point.
SoCal (POC)/NorCal (PRC) come to agreement on rules and go to PCA to try to mend fences but at this point PCA says I don't give a crap what they are doing out West we now have more cars than POC, PRC and NASA combined so we call the shots.
POC say, there is virtually zero PCA racing on West Coast and does their own thing based on what their members are asking for.
NASA drops out and I would assume is reassessing.
And that's where we are.
This was probably doomed from the beginning with so many colorful personalities involved. Lesson learned - it's probably impossible to develop a cross sanctioning body class unless the drivers group controlling the rules stick together and one of them is a kick *** lawyer with lots of free time to squash rebellions by the sanctioning bodies.
A lot of drivers on the West Coast are moving to GT classes in POC and NASA since there are so many options to run virtually every weekend. There is still about 30-40 Spec Boxsters running on a regular basis throughout California.
I'm glad to be out of it. It's made going to the race track an unhappy experience and that's sad. Interesting to see how things pan out but for now I'll be playing in the GT classes.
Nick...
02-24-2012, 03:32 PM
#68
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So give us the scoop. You are all over the internet making this same accusation yet I'm still racing SpecBoxster with PCA so it would seem the ego was yours?
What would happen if you bought an iPad and Apple decided a year later to stop supporting apps? It would sort of **** you off and you'd probably go spend your money on that other tablet maker right?
Nasa has customers who built or purchased cars for this series, a series that Nasa supported last year so what are those customers supposed to do now?
I'm emphasizing the word customer because unlike a club, Nasa is for profit and I pay annual fees, license fees and entry fees for a service that Nasa provides. That service is no longer provided a few short weeks after I re-upped my memberships and licenses.
The customer is getting screwed here and Nasa appear to be the ones who are difficult to deal with because PCA and POC continue racing the series. Hard to look at it any other way. Maybe that's not right. There's always two sides to the story but all I've seen from you are pissy notes like the one on the website and your posts here or on FB.
Why on Earth does it have to be your way or no way? Nasa supports Spec944 and Spec Miata.
Why would SpecBoxster be any different?
What does it really take to incorporate SPB racers into the Autobahn run group?
Could it run in conjunction with GTS and maybe add an assistant liaison to help with paperwork?
Nick, you mentioned elsewhere that all the rules details had been worked out as far as tire/wheel choice etc so tell us what happened. Why do I not have a home at Nasa anymore even though I continue to pay for one?
What would happen if you bought an iPad and Apple decided a year later to stop supporting apps? It would sort of **** you off and you'd probably go spend your money on that other tablet maker right?
Nasa has customers who built or purchased cars for this series, a series that Nasa supported last year so what are those customers supposed to do now?
I'm emphasizing the word customer because unlike a club, Nasa is for profit and I pay annual fees, license fees and entry fees for a service that Nasa provides. That service is no longer provided a few short weeks after I re-upped my memberships and licenses.
The customer is getting screwed here and Nasa appear to be the ones who are difficult to deal with because PCA and POC continue racing the series. Hard to look at it any other way. Maybe that's not right. There's always two sides to the story but all I've seen from you are pissy notes like the one on the website and your posts here or on FB.
Why on Earth does it have to be your way or no way? Nasa supports Spec944 and Spec Miata.
Why would SpecBoxster be any different?
What does it really take to incorporate SPB racers into the Autobahn run group?
Could it run in conjunction with GTS and maybe add an assistant liaison to help with paperwork?
Nick, you mentioned elsewhere that all the rules details had been worked out as far as tire/wheel choice etc so tell us what happened. Why do I not have a home at Nasa anymore even though I continue to pay for one?
02-24-2012, 04:05 PM
#69
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Just a popcorn eating spec miata driver here (
), but is there a legal issue (copyright or other IP law issue) with one body adopting equivalent rules to another?
I understand how power struggles would develop over details in the rules (lsd or no, square vs staggered req'd) but I would have thought that different sanctioning bodies could adopt equivalent rules without issue.
Spec miata recently had a convergence of rules between SCCA and NASA with the only remaining difference being the spec tires (which is complicated by tire supplier contracts/advertising). In all other respects including min weights and restrictor plates, a SCCA SM car and a NASA SM car are identical and racers can easily participate in both on various weekends.
I wouldn't think there would be much overlap on race weekends between PCA and NASA in a given region so the best solution for both groups is aligned rules that allow racers to race more often and clubs to collect more entry fees. I hope it gets there soon...
), but is there a legal issue (copyright or other IP law issue) with one body adopting equivalent rules to another?I understand how power struggles would develop over details in the rules (lsd or no, square vs staggered req'd) but I would have thought that different sanctioning bodies could adopt equivalent rules without issue.
Spec miata recently had a convergence of rules between SCCA and NASA with the only remaining difference being the spec tires (which is complicated by tire supplier contracts/advertising). In all other respects including min weights and restrictor plates, a SCCA SM car and a NASA SM car are identical and racers can easily participate in both on various weekends.
I wouldn't think there would be much overlap on race weekends between PCA and NASA in a given region so the best solution for both groups is aligned rules that allow racers to race more often and clubs to collect more entry fees. I hope it gets there soon...
02-24-2012, 04:17 PM
#70
Perfect Angel
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So how and why did this implode?
Why wouldn't Nasa put the tire change in writing? That is what kept a lot of people from showing up to race. The uncertainty of preparing and paying for a weekend only to be DQ'd regardless of whatever assurances were in place.
Why did Nasa care so much about tire/wheel choice? So much that they wouldn't put it in writing. So much that they drop the series?
It's a few extra words. Driver choice, driver friendly. What's the problem?
It seems very simple to resolve.
Why wouldn't Nasa put the tire change in writing? That is what kept a lot of people from showing up to race. The uncertainty of preparing and paying for a weekend only to be DQ'd regardless of whatever assurances were in place.
Why did Nasa care so much about tire/wheel choice? So much that they wouldn't put it in writing. So much that they drop the series?
It's a few extra words. Driver choice, driver friendly. What's the problem?
It seems very simple to resolve.
02-24-2012, 08:00 PM
#72
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Ironically PCA is the only group that doesn't officially have the rights to the rules.
02-24-2012, 08:12 PM
#73
Perfect Angel
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There probably is. PCA obviously copied the rules from Bodine which were copyrighted. NASA was the only group who formally licensed the rules. Have to give them credit for being stand up about that. PCA said FU, try and sue us. We have lawyers in the club who will gladly take that fight on for free. Who wants to sue over something that really has no monetary value other than trying to keep a drivers governing group together that is already fractured. So that's were it ended.
Ironically PCA is the only group that doesn't officially have the rights to the rules.
Ironically PCA is the only group that doesn't officially have the rights to the rules.
Last edited by Streak; 02-24-2012 at 10:39 PM.
02-24-2012, 08:25 PM
#74
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Hopefully NASA is just regrouping. We like running with them out West because they have a lot of events that are close and they have a well run national championship.
I never understood the PCA model because you have to drive a million miles just to get a hand full of weekends in. I guess it's fine if you are just running a small number of events per year.
I never understood the PCA model because you have to drive a million miles just to get a hand full of weekends in. I guess it's fine if you are just running a small number of events per year.
02-24-2012, 08:41 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
Here's basically the sequence:
Spec Boxster rules developed out of Porsche Owners Club in SoCal.
Texas group (primarily PCA) adopt rules.
War breaks out over staggered vs. square tire option and LSDs.
Somewhere along the line the LSD argument was dropped. I guess tires where enough to argue about.
SoCal (staggered) vs. Texas (square).
PCA tells Bodine we're a national club, POC is not so PCA calls the shots.
Pissed, Bodine goes to another national club (NASA) and signs deal to have spec in NASA nationally.
PCA says we don't give a crap we are PCA and we call the shots.
Bodine exits to pursue philanthropy work with autistic kids.
NASA is just sort of standing back and watching things unfold at this point.
SoCal (POC)/NorCal (PRC) come to agreement on rules and go to PCA to try to mend fences but at this point PCA says I don't give a crap what they are doing out West we now have more cars than POC, PRC and NASA combined so we call the shots.
POC say, there is virtually zero PCA racing on West Coast and does their own thing based on what their members are asking for.
NASA drops out and I would assume is reassessing.
And that's where we are.
This was probably doomed from the beginning with so many colorful personalities involved. Lesson learned - it's probably impossible to develop a cross sanctioning body class unless the drivers group controlling the rules stick together and one of them is a kick *** lawyer with lots of free time to squash rebellions by the sanctioning bodies.
A lot of drivers on the West Coast are moving to GT classes in POC and NASA since there are so many options to run virtually every weekend. There is still about 30-40 Spec Boxsters running on a regular basis throughout California.
I'm glad to be out of it. It's made going to the race track an unhappy experience and that's sad. Interesting to see how things pan out but for now I'll be playing in the GT classes.
Nick...
Spec Boxster rules developed out of Porsche Owners Club in SoCal.
Texas group (primarily PCA) adopt rules.
War breaks out over staggered vs. square tire option and LSDs.
Somewhere along the line the LSD argument was dropped. I guess tires where enough to argue about.
SoCal (staggered) vs. Texas (square).
PCA tells Bodine we're a national club, POC is not so PCA calls the shots.
Pissed, Bodine goes to another national club (NASA) and signs deal to have spec in NASA nationally.
PCA says we don't give a crap we are PCA and we call the shots.
Bodine exits to pursue philanthropy work with autistic kids.
NASA is just sort of standing back and watching things unfold at this point.
SoCal (POC)/NorCal (PRC) come to agreement on rules and go to PCA to try to mend fences but at this point PCA says I don't give a crap what they are doing out West we now have more cars than POC, PRC and NASA combined so we call the shots.
POC say, there is virtually zero PCA racing on West Coast and does their own thing based on what their members are asking for.
NASA drops out and I would assume is reassessing.
And that's where we are.
This was probably doomed from the beginning with so many colorful personalities involved. Lesson learned - it's probably impossible to develop a cross sanctioning body class unless the drivers group controlling the rules stick together and one of them is a kick *** lawyer with lots of free time to squash rebellions by the sanctioning bodies.
A lot of drivers on the West Coast are moving to GT classes in POC and NASA since there are so many options to run virtually every weekend. There is still about 30-40 Spec Boxsters running on a regular basis throughout California.
I'm glad to be out of it. It's made going to the race track an unhappy experience and that's sad. Interesting to see how things pan out but for now I'll be playing in the GT classes.
Nick...
There are some important facts or additional things left out of this timeline, maybe you weren't aware of them Nprichards.
As in any dispute there are multiple sides to the story with the truth being somewhere in the middle. At the end of the day, I think this issue will be resolved. There are too many SPB's out there already and neither NASA nor PCA will want to lose that revenue stream. I am sure NASA knows about what is being said and going on.